Original - A flower spider, Diaea evanida with it's prey on a jonquil flower.Alt 1 - you can see the scales of the moth on the spiders head pretty well in this one
Reason
Technically high quality and plenty of EV with the spider clearly shown along with it's prey.
Looks pretty natural in terms of WB to me. You can't look at a histogram of a scene like this to determine the white balance anyway, though, as there is nothing obviously neutral in the image to get a reading off. It only works well if the entire frame is lit with the same light AND there is a natural balance of colours in the scene to begin with. Capital Photographer's inability to see issues with colour balance and subtle detail has been demonstrated before. Not to single him out, but it does seem to be a recurring thing and I suspect his monitor. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)18:30, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note that I said if... ;-) Seriously, the whitest whites lean towards red, not green. I agree it looks natural, so don't change anything. --Janke | Talk20:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note that this is nature, and the moth, underside of jonquil and the spider abdomen were all creamy whites, not white white. So a lean towards reds in the "whitest whites" is to be expected. And yeah I obviously agree that the WB is natural :) --Fir000223:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Have now checked it using 5 displays, 3LCD and 2 CRT, slight green skew in the wings. I should add that one of the most important things when judging colour integrity is your environment, the room and your computer desktop. If you have strong colours around you, it can desensitise you to those colours when viewing an image. Hence, many photographers and graphic artists have neutral grey desktops and subdued office colour schemes... as I do. Just saying, there is more to colour bias than the calibration of a display. I should also point out my main display is SWOT certified and calibrated monthly, so I feel it is as accurate on a technical level as possible. Given the colour fault seems to be visible only on certain high end devices, I will change my vote to support. It is a fine image in any case. I would like to see more images from fir like his photo that is today's feature image of a bird in flight. Capital photographer (talk) 05:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm that's interesting what you say about graphic artists and subdued environments, because I'd have thought creating an image which looks good in a typical environment would be of more value then one which only looks correct in a grey environment? Because it's not likely that the target audience will be viewing the product in such a controlled environment... Anyway glad you like the flycatcher shot, you might also like this --Fir000206:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Completely honestly though, it may be Capital Photographer's eyes at fault rather than his many calibrated monitors. Again, I'm not trying to publicly crucify him, just raising the issue. One example was the Trevi Fountain image, where he could not see the blue tinge in his edit, even when it was pointed out to him. In this case, it wasn't a matter of which monitor was more accurately calibrated - using an eye dropper on the plaque proved that there was a blue tinge, because there was more B luminance than R and G. It could be argued that a well calibrated monitor muted the blues, but they should still have been visible, I think. Anyway, just food for thought really. Colour accuracy is such a complex thing and I'm sure we pixel peep far more than we need to at times. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)11:28, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support original. Very good macro, could do with more DOF but so could just about every macro shot in existance. You've done well to keep everything important in the plane of focus though. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)18:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Opose. It does not illustrate the subject in a particularly compelling way, doesn't make me want to know more. It's too dark, and doesn't stand out as being Wikipedia's best work. An other image from the article it's in would be better suited to be featured.Dwayne Reed (talk) 06:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Huh, what's up with that 'reason' for nominating? Can we get a real reason here that actually makes sense? --jjron (talk) 10:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose aspect ratio - feels too cropped left and right. Also it seems like there is a lamp out behind the pillars on camera left. Should be retaken with that working. Mfield (talk) 14:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The lamp comment really irritates me. I think just about any other reason (up to and including something like "it sucks") would have been better than blaming the photographer for illustrating reality. To ask that a photograph look like a movie set flies in the face of what an encyclopedia is supposed to be. Noclip (talk) 00:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It's an easily retakeable shot, as a photographer I would go back the following week and reshoot it as it would annoy me to have an image with a lamp missing as much as it probably offends the maintenance staff of the SCOTUS. The building probably doesn't have a lamp missing very often, and as such the image is atypical of the building at night and thus less enc. Mfield (talk) 01:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't think there is a lamp, there is a basement window bottom lit up left, and a small stack of scaffolding partly hidden behind the pillar. Difficult to catch an institutional building with absolutely no clutter. ProfDEH (talk) 12:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I am talking the facade behind the columns. The right side is illuminated by a large floodlight but the left side is not. I am fairly certain its not generally that way Mfield (talk) 15:50, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The first Saturn V, AS-501, before the launch of Apollo 4. Early morning view on November 9, 1967 of Pad A, Launch Complex 39, Kennedy Space Center, showing the Apollo 4 Saturn V (Spacecraft 017/Saturn 501) prior to launch later that day. This was the first launch of the Saturn V.
Reason
This image is very eye catching and contains a beautiful background.
Trivial to re-shoot. ;) At first I thought it was already featured, but after a quick hunt, I realised it was this one that was featured. I also note that it is no longer used in the article, which is a bit unfortunate because there are no other images of the launch either. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)18:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this image was put up as a cadidate awhile ago and rejected for having the moon artifilcially put in. victorrocha (talk) 19:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose The background has many problems with spots and scratches, which greatly reduces the eye-candy when viewing at fullsize. (Note: this changes in a strong oppose if victorrocha's comment turns out to be true) Fransw (talk) 16:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose Fake moon. The image looks like something off of the back of a 1990s Lego box. (I'd also add that fake moons tend to demonstrate people's general ignorance. They think the moon is a pretty thing, but they never actually look up.) TheOtherSiguy (talk) 23:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Fake moon ruins the enc. (do i recall reading that this moon position is completely incorrect for the time of shot which is inexcusable for NASA of all people.) Mfield (talk) 03:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is NOT of a high technical standard. Not sure about being an exception, it's potentially historical/unique but impossibility of technically superior image is unclear.
Meets minimum requirements for resolution, but not great. Again not sure about exception.
Wikipedia's best work? IMO not.
While somewhat pretty, doesn't add much to the articles it appears in.
Is not accurate
Based on the article, and the note (which describes potential errors in the description about direction, timing, and addition of a full moon which should have been a quarter moon). See http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.php and enter November 9th, 1967 at Merritt Island, Florida. The moon was added in the incorrect phase, and either it was in the incorrect direction relative to the rocket or the image was altered and it was taken at sunset not sunrise. The later would then require that "USA", "United States", and the American Flags would have been flipped. Based on other photos it appears to be in the original orientation, but the moon is added.
The caption is cluttered and possibly inaccurate.
Digital Manipulation is questionable. The problems seem to have come from it's source in NASA and not editing by wikipedians, so does this apply? More over it requires much manipulation to overcome issues of technical quality.Dwayne Reed (talk) 04:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If the article is that uninteresting why would I want the picture to be seen on the front page, which would then link it to a second rate article? You've given me one good reason not to support the image. --Blechnic (talk) 03:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
the picture looks great, and meets the criteria to be a featured picture. That has nothing to do with the quality of the article it appears on. It's nominated to be a featured picture, not featured article. I don't think that the article is a bad one, it's just that I find the subject of the article uninteresting/boring. Articles don't have to be written in an exciting way. Most of the articles that go with featured pictures are pretty boring. I'd bet that most of the folks commenting on these featured picture candidates don't care much about the articles, but like pictures. Besides It's only my opinion. And the point is that the picture adds value to the article, so I support it being featured. If you believe it should not be featured because of the quality of the associated article, then you're welcome to !vote oppose. In that case who ever makes the decision to promote or not is sure to see a reason for opposing that's not supported.Dwayne Reed (talk) 19:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support A very nice image, but I wish that the background branches were in lesser focus. (The Branch the bird is on is fine. The branches seem to be in better focus than other FP's I've seen, like this or this. Also, if someone could slightly blur the branches like this, I'd fully support. SpencerT♦C20:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support It's a really nice picture, but it looks a little funny with half of the branch in focus and the other half blurry.116135 (talk) 00:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support in spite of the supporter above badmouthing the article as if the picture shouldn't see light of day because of an inferior article--the article's fine. --Blechnic (talk) 03:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A team of obstetricians perform a caesarean section in a modern hospital. The image shows the very first moment the mother glimpses her new-born child.Edit 2 by Diliff. Same idea as Victorrocha but kept original resolution and slightly cleaner noise reduction (compare background, eg clock)File:Cesarian the moment of birth4.jpgDiff version.
Reason
As another user commented, the WOW factor is incredible (this definitely makes you want to read accompanying article). The focal point of the picture is really well highlighted. I find the edit cleans the picture up to the degree that it meets the FP requirements. Was originally posted to WP:PPR and seconded here Wikipedia:Picture_peer_review/Cesarian
I do not see why one is required, especially since no one is this photo is identifiable, as the woman is lying down and the doctors are covered. smooth0707 (talk) 19:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let's call this a matter of perspective. I am a woman. If anyone ever shows up in a delivery room where I am giving birth and attempts to use "she's lying down" as a pretext to take photographs without my permission, I will leap from the gurney, tackle the SOB, and eat the camera. DurovaCharge!15:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Correct, it would be very hard to sneak into that particular surgery and start taking snapshots of strangers. All images were taken with the full knowledge and consent of all present (except for the baby). --Salimfadhley (talk) 00:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A bit harder to do during a c-section than a regular birth: general anesthesia. How do we know she was any more willing to permit photography of the delivery than she would have been of the conception? DurovaCharge!16:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, no one in the photo is identifiable, with the doctors masked, the new mother facing away, and, while the baby is uncovered, all newborns pretty much look alike. The lack of clearly identifiable individuals would seem to cut against the argument their personality or privacy rights are being infringed. Nevertheless, I can't pretend to offer a legal opinion; perhaps someone else knows more. Fletcher (talk) 17:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know British law. If it is anything like the U.S., a standard hospital consent form would grant permission for limited photography purposes (patient care, scientific research and medical training). Anything beyond that use would require additional specific consent, and presence in Wikipedia (let alone the main page) goes far beyond those limited purposes. That standard applies to all medical procedures, not just childbirth. DurovaCharge!17:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do we know British law applies rather than Florida law? Wikipedia is not in the London hospital, taking the pictures. We are hosting the image from Florida. And I doubt Florida law covers people in London hospitals. Fletcher (talk) 17:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The image is hosted at Wikimedia Commons, where site policy is to respect the law of both the home country and the United States. Another editor notes below that this photograph may be in violation of the European convention on human rights. DurovaCharge!06:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
oppose I agree with Durovas questioning of the image having appropriate approvals, the medical team would obviously not have given permission for their image to used commercially, I also note that in Australia a doctor can be deregistered for such actions, that while I'm not sure of the UK position commonalities between UK and Aust are in the majority. Gnangarra16:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean that a doctor can be deregistered for such actions...? What actions exactly? Allowing a photographer to take a photo of them during a procedure? I have no idea whether you're right or not, but it sounds a bit over the top. I'm sure I've seen photos taken before. How many families have photos, or even video, of a childbirth? Is that something for a doctor to be deregistered for? Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)18:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Allowing a photo to be taken by a person for a private record isnt an issue, allowing an image to be taken for commercial purposes violates ethical standards and such violations can see the doctor de-registered. Gnangarra00:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah sorry, I didn't see that you meant commercial photography. OK, but what about documentaries filmed in a hospital.. you sometimes see footage of an actual operation, and a documentary is commercial. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)07:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Such things would have obtained the necessary approvals as seen in the credits, my oppose is based on the image licensing and whether the necessary approval has been granted from the medical team for unrestricted commercial use. Gnangarra08:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Question: Surely the privacy/personality issue has come up before? Hopefully I didn't miss something, but I didn't see anything pertinent in Image Use Policy or featured picture criteria. Does the apparent lack of policy indicate it's only an issue between photographer and subject? Or does Wikipedia experience "second hand" liability if a freely licensed photograph is found to infringe the rights of the subject? Hmmm. Fletcher (talk) 17:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If we are going on this, Photography_and_the_law (see UK section), then I quote "in general there is no right to privacy under UK law, and photograph of individuals may be used for any purposes." Unless someone presents something more definitive, I think it is jumping the gun to vote oppose (based on the permission doubts), similiar to our friend Gnan. In addition, I do not believe that any permission is required when no one is identifiable, but I will look up definitive info if I can. smooth0707 (talk) 17:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. I did see under the General Disclaimer that Wikipedia explicitly disavows responsibility for photographs that infringe on personality rights. Thus, it should be a matter between the photographer and subject. I presume if a lawsuit developed Wikipedia could conceivably have to remove the offending photo, but I don't see why we would have to preemptively suppress photos we have explicitly denied responsibility for. Furthermore, as the subjects are not identifiable, it's rather unlikely there will be any issue with it down the road.Fletcher (talk) 17:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Allow me to be explicit then. Although I don't perceive any deliberate bias and all of the participants to this discussion are probably decent people, there is also an undercurrent which is--to say the least--disturbing. Some women allow their childbirths to be photographed and distributed; others, most vehemently, do not. Some women allow their copulations to be photographed and distributed; others, most vehemently, do not. We have no idea which view this woman holds. I doubt very much we would even consider a photograph of comparable quality of two human beings copulating with equivalent proportions of their bodies, faces, and the surrounding room visible unless their permission had been explicitly granted, because this is sufficient detail for the people who already know the individuals well to recognize them. And if this subject happens to be of the opinion that childbirth is as private as lovemaking, then this discussion is downright dehumanizing. It reduces one of the most important moments in her life to the level of the Discovery Channel and Animal Planet: look at the female mammal generating offspring, as expressed by a group of males who can never themselves be humiliated in this particular manner. The nearest parallel I can think of would be a photograph of a vasectomy with the patient's face partially visible, the medical team's faces partially visible, and the operating room in such good depth of focus that it's easily recognizable to anyone who knows the department and the hospital. Camera metadata are a strong hint to the rest. If a man who is having a vasectomy consents to such a photograph I will support it, and if this woman likes the idea of her childbirth running on Wikipedia's main page I will support it. But until and unless she grants that permission my opinion here has to be very strong oppose. Call that WP:IAR if necessary: this is just plain wrong. DurovaCharge!18:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the relation between childbirth and porn. I do not know what undercurrent you see, but I nominated this picture because I thought it was an amazing picture highlighting the first moment of life, not to mention its encyclopedic nature. The Free Arts license attached to it is concerned with respect. The nomination is in a great respect to childbirth and to the author of the photograph and a nod to its rarity. This is the 21st century and many women choose C-sections as a preference, and I think this photograph is a tremendous illustration of that. It does not demean the moment in that woman's life whatsoever (who I remind is unidentifiable). Please do not take offense to that. smooth0707 (talk) 18:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
British law and the Wikipedia misquote above from Wikipedia. The full sentence says,
"Photography without consent of someone in a place where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, could be considered to be against the European convention on human rights, however in general there is no right to privacy under UK law, and photograph of individuals may be used for any purposes. In addition persistent or aggressive photography of a single individual may come under the legal definition of harassment. In general, schools disallow photography and video recording of people due to privacy concerns. "
It's always interesting to me what people choose to omit to prove their points. Now, Wikipedia isn't the authority on British photography law, but since if it were taken "without consent of someone in a place where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, it could be considered to be against the European convention on human rights."
You omitted that it might be a violation of her human rights. But, hell, she's a woman, what's another woman's human rights violated?
I think this photograph should come with a permission of the models. With the models' permissions, its a wonderful image, without it's just more exploitation. But again, what's a human rights violation when a Wikipedia FP is at stake? Please, just ask the photographer to get the model's permission. It's simple. Don't guess, just get the permission. --Blechnic (talk) 00:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There was no release form, this is just a family snapshot of which we are particularly proud - if you are concerned then rather than imagine what my wife must be thinking then one of you can meet her, verify that she is the same person and then ask her yourself. Contact me directly if you are interested. Thanks! --Salimfadhley (talk) 00:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a statistically sound assumption when it comes to human rights violations and women. I'm concerned about privacy issues, identification issues, release issues. So is Durova. Her concerns are being dismissed. These issues were dismissed with a misquote from a Wikipedia article. This raises questions to me, and statistically, in the world, brick or web, the human rights of women are not of great concern. That is a far greater incivility than mentioning it or suspecting it can ever be. -Blechnic (talk) 00:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Statistically sound or not, you are assuming bad faith if you say someone is motivated out of sexism and disregard for women. Legal matters can get very complex; the mere fact that someone makes an interpretation that might be adverse to a woman hardly implies it is done out of sexism. Quite possibly it is the British interpretation of privacy that will be practically relevant, even if there is some potential appeal to the EU, which could explain why he quoted it that way. In addition, why do you interpret disagreement with Durova as dismissal of her concerns? This isn't some old boys' club; it's a wiki. No one gets to dismiss her, but we can disagree, if we want. Fletcher (talk) 01:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Allow me to clarify for my own part: I assume the best of intentions and basic decency on the part of all parties. Certain scenes are just much easier or harder to relate to from a given perspective. If someone were to nominate a photograph of a circumcision being performed on an adult, my predominant reaction would be a clinical curiosity about what the operation looks like supplemented with an interest in public health issues as the procedure relates to HIV transmission. Most men would react very differently. It becomes a little harder to maintain good faith after having set forth the substance and reasoning of my misgivings in an articulate and (I hope) nonconfrontational manner, but I am maintaining it: I trust that the obstacle is an alien perspective, very hard to imagine effectively when one's anatomy is fundamentally different, and that everyone in this discussion is a well-meaning person. DurovaCharge!01:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you to Fletcher for pointing out that the sexism claims are misdirected. If I did misquote, its not a failure on my part to recognize women's rights, I was taking the relevant part about UK, not some broad claim about the EU that has no source. The source for that Wiki page is this about Photographer's rights, unfortunately, it does not cover this particular situation and I haven't been able to find anything else on the matter (yet). I would also like to reiterate that I do not think it matters if I am male or female, I look at this picture from an objective third party perspective and I think it is an amazing photograph. Also Durova, with all due respect, you keep mentioning anatomy, but isn't that the case with medical related pictures? If there was a photograph nominated of a vasectomy or circumcision then I would judge that photograph exactly how you expressed, with a clinical perspective coupled with an encyclopedic view, as I am doing here. I personally believe that most people seeing this picture for the first time will be thoroughly surprised on seeing a picture like this one. I can understand if you feel differently however and do not mean to disregard your opinion. My point is that it seems to me that none of us know if a model release is required in this case. A reliable source would certainly end this discussion, although I am surprised this matter has never arisen before[citation needed]. In the meantime, I will ask Salimfadhley to get a model release, despite the fact that none of us are sure on the law.smooth0707 (talk) 02:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought it over carefully and decided that even if model release isn't legally required, context and common sense demand it. Wikimedia projects often handle images more conservatively than the bare minimum statutory requirement: consider Wikipedia's fair use parameters and Commons's decision to not host material based upon inapplicable local law even though United States copyright is the only restriction it is required to observe. The shared element is courtesy--we endeavor to refrain from exploitation. This woman was unconscious when the photograph was taken. We have no assurance that she permitted it or that she even knows it exists, yet we are seriously contemplating displaying it on Wikipedia's main page where it will be seen by approximately seven million people. This is why I invoked WP:IAR: it may be that no one anticipated such a discussion, and I will be very grateful if she does consent, but we must not presume. A consent to publish the actual birth of one's child is the most personal decision in the world. DurovaCharge!03:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm curious: What makes you think that the mother was unconscious when the photograph was taken? In my experience general anaesthesia during caesarean section is rare and there is no evidence in the photograph that it was used in this case. Also, I count six adults present in the image, none of whom could fairly be described as the subject. 66.240.20.113 (talk) 20:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My wife was fully conscious throughout the entire procedure - that is why there is a surgical screen, to prevent the mother from seeing and becoming disturbed by the procedure. At the end of the procedure (and after baby is checked by the midwife), baby is given to the mother to hold for the first time. --Salimfadhley (talk) 00:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A very standard procedure; I see no reason to suspect that the Mother, obstetricians or other medial staff were unaware that the photograph was being taken. Support66.240.20.113 (talk) 06:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
<=Wikipedia's image policies are structured to promote free content, which doesn't seem to be the issue here. Wikipedia is not censored, so we do not suppress images as a courtesy to people who don't want them shown. I haven't seen any policy against exploitation, and I'm not even sure what that term is supposed to mean. I do think we should figure out if the photographer infringed the subject's rights. If he did, we should not compound the damages done even if Wikipedia is not liable (as we are not, per the General Disclaimer). If he didn't -- either she consented or her consent was not required -- I don't see the harm in featuring the image. It's a wonderful image, and the benefit to Wikipedia's readers will far exceed any harm done to the subject. Indeed I don't really understand what harm is done to the subject: she is not identifiable, nor is the baby, in my opinion, nor are the doctors, so the image does not expose anything about her particular life, because nothing in particular is known about her. Her head faces away, with her body covered in blankets. The newborn looks like any newborn; it could be any of us, as its mother could be any of our mothers. In that way the image has artistic value complementing its encyclopedic value. I continue to support, if the image is legal. Fletcher (talk) 04:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I am the person who took this photo. The "model" is my wife and the baby is my baby. This is a photo from my family album taken and uploaded with consent of all present (except the baby who could not have any say in the matter. He's now 2 years old. I asked him if he minds Wikipedia using this image and he ran off to do something more interesting. This image has been used all over the world - I think it's been on the cover of at least one obstetrics journal (in Mexico) and it's been on Flickr for over 2 years now. Nobody objects to it being on Wikipedia. --Salimfadhley (talk) 08:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(ec - now mostly redundant)Strong Support if the model's permission can be obtained per a striking and moving image. If the model can't be found then still I think Support per Fletcher (assuming the image is legal - agree with Fletcher we should check). As the woman and doctors are unrecognisable I don't see any great need to remove the image to protect their privacy. Since the question has been raised, I am a man, but I don't think my support is due to my "anatomy [being] fundamentally different": I can't speak for most men, but I'd be acting exactly the same (and exactly the same as Durova describes herself acting) if the picture were of a circumcision or vasectomy. If the image were good and the subject anonymous, as I believe they are here, I'd be supporting just the same. Olaf Davis | Talk08:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support despite being a bit grainy in the shadows. Had we but asked the uploader first, all those electrons used in the discussion above could have been left unbothered... ;-) --Janke | Talk08:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support although could be less grainy in some areas. If there is more reason than conjecture that this might violate privacy (it has bee freely released) then you should attempt to have this image deleted. But I don't really see that there is beyond guessing. grenグレン11:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral the original photo is released under a "CC Non-commerical by attribution" license on Flickr - that means if somebody feels the photo would be better with the mother's face blurred out then they are free to do so as attribution is preseved. I honestly do not mind as long as the CC rules are followed. --Salimfadhley (talk) 11:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what benefit is gained by a written release when all we have is his word that the person giving his release is actually his wife, as opposed to him giving his word that this wife consents. Mangostar (talk) 23:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not to sound redundant, but based on the points raised by Fletcher and Olaf, and from the author's comments, I do not think it is a "barrier" to being a FP, although I don't see how a release would hurt. smooth0707 (talk) 21:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are you aware that the license you released the image on at Wikipedia is not non-commercial? The fine print of the Free Art License states "it gives the right to copy, distribute, and modify copies of the work including for commercial purposes and without any other restrictions than those required by the respect of the other compatibility criteria;". This conflicts with the license you released it with on Flickr... Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)11:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I don't believe a model permission is necessary in this case. Worst to the worst, Wikipedia would get a cease and desist letter, the photograph would be taken down, and that would be that. NauticaShades22:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
SupportStrong Oppose But I would like a model release, also. The graininess can't be helped with the lighting situation, so this doesn't matter. It's a very generic childbirth, too, because of the limited view of the mother, and the timing. Yes, Salim, son/daughter, the whole human race looks pretty much the same at the moment of birth. It would be a good picture to see on the main page. --Blechnic (talk) 23:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's not going to be a model-release. Like I said, this is a family snapshot. The "model" is not a model but my wife. The baby is not a model either - she is my baby. She can dribble, puke and cry really well. She's learning to crawl but she's not going to be signing any legal documents for another 2 years at least. As I said before, these images have been CC licensed on Flickr for at least 6 months - that alone makes it fair-game for Wikipedia. --Salimfadhley (talk) 10:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose the issue that everyone has been crowing about is the fact that your wife, however unidentifiable she is, might not approve of the image being released or worse, file a lawsuit down the track. She might be your wife but she is still entitled to own opinion, obviously. I don't see how she could possibly implicate Wikipedia though, as you have released the image under a specific license, and Wikipedia will respect the license. I guess the point remains that you might not, in theory, have the right to release an image of another person in a very intimate time and location, and I think that Durova's concern is that while permission might not be required, it would be discourteous to not attempt to get it. I see that point and respect it, but on the other hand she is quite unidentifiable, and I'm inclined to think that if she is not happy with the image being published, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. For the time being, lets assume good faith and that the benefit of a good quality, encyclopaedic image outweighs the potential distress/embarassment/shame/etc on the part of those in the image. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)11:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No need to be snappy to me, Salimfadhley. I supported the image, but stated I would like a model release. Guess what? You don't get to sign your wife's model release. You don't own her release rights. Changed to strong oppose--this attitude and answer about the model release does not bode well for the situation of using this image. The model is a model, and she's a human being first, and apparently an adult, with her own legal rights, that you don't get to, in the laws of many lands, sign away with only your say-so. --Blechnic (talk) 03:38, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please provide evidence that such a release is required. His attitude is irrelevant, as we are judging the picture, not the photographer. Besides, if he seemed "snappy" it may be in reaction to the implication that he is untrustworthy, which I think is uncalled for. Fletcher (talk) 03:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Diliff. Again, I note the general disclaimer absolves Wikipedia of responsibility in the hypothetical event Salim is doing something improper. That covers us legally. Ethically speaking, I think to assume good faith is to defer to Salim's good judgment about his wife's expectations. Fletcher (talk) 14:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Provide evidence he owns the wife and her legal rights, he's the one giving her permission, seems photographer thinks it needs permission he gives. Heck, snappy for assuming bad faith? I supported the image, and then said I would like a model release, not I demanded one, and then I praised the picture, for that I get snapped at? Forget it. This picture will be problems. --Blechnic (talk) 05:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Salim was trying to be snappy. Perhaps he misunderstood the model permission requirement and was explaining that his wifeis not a model:-) Muhammad(talk)08:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please understand the European Convention on Human Rights. In the third millenium, a wife speaks for herself. Until and unless she agrees, we must oppose on principle, and in the strongest terms. DurovaCharge!09:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But does the European Convention of Human Rights apply to a situation in which the person concerned is unidentifiable? You cite law, but your argument is about moral principles (and I agree with your argument, except to say I think it would be nice but not absolutely necessary). It doesn't sound like the author is going to be swayed into providing 'proof of authorisation' by opposition out of principle. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)11:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Durova, you said "Until and unless she agrees, we must oppose". Salim has said above that his wife has given permission. I really don't see why we should oppose on principle unless we have any reason to doubt Salim's truthfulness about his wife having consented (which we don't). After all, he's not saying "I hereby give my wife's permission" as Durova and Blechnic seem to be implying - he's just telling us that she has consented herself. What's wrong with that? And what will convince you that she has consented, if Salim's word is for some reason not enough? Olaf Davis | Talk14:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In Durova's defense, I don't think Salim ever did actually say his wife gave permission, he just said no written permission would be forthcoming. It was only somewhat implied that his wife approved - certainly it wasn't explicitly stated that his wife gave permission. Again though, I don't think it is absolutely necessary anyway, if she isn't identifiable. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)15:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The statement of Salim's I was referring to is "This is a photo from my family album taken and uploaded with consent of all present". Assuming that "uploaded" means "uploaded to Wikipedia" that seems fairly explicit to me - do you disagree with my interpretation? Olaf Davis | Talk16:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, you're absolutely right. I thought I had read everything thoroughly (I even searched for every instance of Salim's name to confirm that I had), but somehow I missed that statement. Fair enough, I think thats about as much proof as you can really expect. As has been mentioned, a written document is no more proof unless we can confirm his wife's signature anyway, and that is just getting a bit ridiculous over someone who is unidentifiable. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)17:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The hostility from Durova and Blechnic is puzzling. "Provide evidence he owns the wife and her legal rights". I never suggested anything of the kind, and I don't see any evidence that portraying the issue as some kind of gender war is justified. I look at it as deferring to the mutual respect and understanding that ought to exist between people in a committed relationship. A woman photographing her husband undergoing some procedure would be no different. Fletcher (talk) 17:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not impute hostility onto me. This is a matter of international human rights convention. This woman is an adult; we do not have her explicit consent; she has a reasonable expectation of privacy. Nobody else can grant consent for her, unless that person can also produce power of attorney. DurovaCharge!22:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You ignored my question about whether the issue of human rights applies to this situation. I would argue it doesn't simply because she is unidentifiable. There is nothing about this image that could violate her rights as far as I can see. As I said above, I feel like you're taking a moral issue (and a tenuous one, given she is unidentifiable) and trying to make it a legal one to support your case. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)23:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I accept your assurance that you're not being hostile; if that was hostility on my own part, I apologize (as well to Blechnic). Please explain which human rights convention, specifically, you are referring to -- which law states or implies a person must have written consent to take a photo of his or her spouse in a private situation and post it to the web. In addition, your claim that we are saying Salim consents on his wife's behalf is a bit of a strawman (or strawperson, if you prefer); as you can see from Olaf Davis' comments above, and the quote to which he refers, Salim did explicitly claim he is publishing this photo with his wife's consent [1]. So it is not a question of him consenting on her behalf, but a question of believing what he has told us, versus forcing him to produce documentation of what he has told us. On Wikipedia we try to assume good faith, so I don't understand why this wouldn't suffice, particularly given the fact that she is not even identifiable in the photo. Fletcher (talk) 23:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We have a responsibility to host images with clear and unobstructed rights, particularly when we feature them and run them on the main page. Salim asserts his wife consented; she has not submitted her own consent. She could generate an OTRS ticket quite easily herself, but she hasn't. Now I wish to express these important and delicate points sensitively: suppose for a moment that she does not consent; that she is a very private person. There is enough information in this shot and the photo description and metadata for people who already know this woman to confirm that it is her. Have you ever had someone misunderstand you in a really big way? This is a human rights issue; twelve to twenty million people will see this if it runs on the main page. Of course we can't be cavalier. DurovaCharge!08:16, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any reason that we'd trust an OTRS claiming to be from Salim's wife more than him claiming to have her permission? If I didn't trust Salim not to lie about having asked his wife (though trust him I do), I'm not sure I'd trust him not to fake his wife's name when creating a ticket. I really can't see any way of being more sure about this than we already are.
It doesn't look as though either side in this disagreement is about to change its mind, so unless anything new comes up I will probably leave this to the closer's judgement of our consensus. Olaf Davis | Talk15:12, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Commenting comment - this isn't about the infant, it's about the process. It's actually good that we see all the doctors, the mother, the operating room. Newborn kids are thirteen to a dozen, but a picture of a team doing a Caesarean are scarce. Keep as is. --Janke | Talk15:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. If this image is about the process of Cesarian section then it doesn't seem to have enough emphasis on that. The creator User:Salimfadhley writes "The focal point of the picture is really well highlighted." which is clearly the infant. The image would be more appropriate if the infant weren't highlighted, and the team of physicians were less dark and less grainy. At first glance this image could be of a cesarian section or vaginal birth. You have to look closely to tell that which it is. This doesn't add much to the encyclopedic content of the article. It definitely has the "wow" factor, but this doesn't meet the criteria to be a featured picture.Dwayne Reed (talk) 19:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent point, until you completely enlarge the image, and look carefully and analyze, you can't tell whether it is a c-section or vaginal delivery. --Blechnic (talk) 04:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that point is as important as you make it out to be. Most of us might not even know what the two deliveries would look like until we'd been through them or we were a medical professional. People would likely see this image because they visited the article, so they would already be aware of what it is depicting. In this case, I think it might be an ambiguous image, but one which is appropriately explained by the article and by the caption, so the fact that it isn't self descriptive isn't important IMO. What it does do well is show the medical environment of a caesarian birth, the baby being delivered, etc. It is still a very useful image for the article. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)07:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I follow. Wouldn't people see the image because it appears on the front page? Anyway, I was attempting to comment on the ability of the picture to add to the encyclopedic value of the article. The article and caption certain explain what's going on, but I thought the photo should be able to illustrate the article and not the other way around.Dwayne Reed (talk) 03:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do we need to obtain consent for every image containing a visible human being in a situation that may be considered sensitive to someone (whether it be the person in the image, or a viewer of the image)? How do we judge what is acceptable and what is not? I don't feel we can. I don't think Wikipedia should be censored based on what individuals personally feel are morally ambiguous. We're supposed to be judging the image and its significance in the article, not basing it on our own moral agenda. Morality rests on the shoulders of the original contributor IMO - not us. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)23:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But excuse me, have you replied to my two previous requests for you to tell me exactly how the European Convention apllies to this situation? Since you ask though, I have looked at it, and I cannot see, to the best of my ability, anything in there that would be an issue. The closest match I can find is Section I, Article 8:
1 Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2 There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
Is this what you are refering to? I don't think it really applies to this situation. If you're refering to something else, please cite it specifically so we can discuss it. As it stands, the European Convention on Human Rights is far to big (and vague for that matter) to wave around without being far more specific about what you mean exactly. Diliff | (Talk)
Yes, this is very silly: The convention on human rights is a cumbersome document that serves a similar role as the US Constitution - it guides lawmakers and not citizens. It's simply not relevant to this discussion. --Salimfadhley (talk) 00:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Edit 2 - Given the identity of the photgrapher and the subjects I agree with some comments above that a release is not required. Love the shot especially the focus the lighting brings - Peripitus(Talk)04:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose per ethical issues raised above. Potential legal issues resulting from putting this on the mainpage. If not legality, moral issues resulting from putting this on the mainpage and never knowing what the mother thinks. Remember that Dilbert cartoon? Xavexgoem (talk) 08:35, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Its been done many times before though, without consent from those in an image. This is an encyclopaedia. We provide information about all subjects and we don't censor on the whims of moral paranoia (usually). She is clearly quite unidentifiable, her husband has said she doesn't mind the photo being published, and he has released the image on Flickr for 6 months already. If this were scrutiny applied to all FP images, we'd have to track down everyone vaguely identifiable and ask for their permission to be made famous on the front page of Wikipedia. That is ridiculous. Oooh, what if someone was caught in a photo of a random landmark? What if they were supposed to be on a business trip that day, but really they were having an affair and their wife caught them with another woman? What if Wikipedia was sued? Oooh! Censor! Censor! Get rid of them all!!! *screams for dramatic effect!* Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)10:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not moral paranoia; I admit it's a principled decision on my part, though. Take it or leave it. But before I go: The concern here is that this is a woman giving birth, not evidence of someone cheating on their spouse. If you understand my distinction, then you understand my oppose given the circumstances. Again, it's principled. OTOH, I'm willing to concede that perhaps whomever was giving birth wouldn't mind at all that that image of theirs is on the front page of one of the largest websites in the world... but be that as it may, I'm rather cautious. <shrugs> I'll never know, and there's the rub. Xavexgoem (talk) 11:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I realise you're being light-hearted and not trying to offend anyone Diliff, but given how strongly several people seem to feel on this maybe that's a dangerous route to take. After all, it won't help any of us if someone gets offended over a perceived attack in your 'dramatic scream'! Olaf Davis | Talk15:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think people often see attacks where attacks don't exist, though - it was ridicule of the argument, perhaps, but not an attack on the person. I happen to feel strongly about the issue too - I feel that if we have to go to the lengths requested to satisfy the minority here, we're setting a rather extreme precedent. I've not been against the idea of getting Salim's wife's permission, but I am against the idea that people are opposing because he has not provided it. Good faith has flown out the window in the hysteria of this nomination and it was my dramatic scream that was intended to show how silly it could be if applied to all nominations. I agree with jjron - a sensible closer should and would ignore moral issues and stick to the opposition addressing the criteria. It either is or isn't a FP based on that. Everything else is just forcing morals onto the process where they don't belong, IMO. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)15:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say from reading the above we could stand Salim's wife up in court and get her to swear her approval for the use of this photo, and that still wouldn't satisfy some voters. In other words it would just be a hiding to nothing. Obviously 'votes' that do not address Wikipedia:Featured picture criteria will be ignored by the closer. --jjron (talk) 14:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Any concerned Wikipedian is free to contact me directly and then directly speak to my wife, of course you will have to meet her in person to verify that she is the woman in the photo and not a female impostor. Other than that you will have to take my word for the fact that she has no objection to these pictures being published. --Salimfadhley (talk) 00:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support Edit 2 great shot. A pervasive argument seems to be that if this image gets featured it will automatically appear on the main page. FP != POTD. None of the people are distinguishable in the picture so I see absolutly no need for permission even if it wasn't explicitly given by the creator. I see no reason not to trust the creators word or why a photo of childbirth should be treated differently than other pictures of people. Cacophony (talk) 17:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Image is large enough, and striking enough and certainly encyclopedic enough. Even the rules of commons, which are more strict than WP rules, says that as long as there is a reasonable assurance that attempts were made to get permission, the picture is ok. Commons did not require a statement in writing from the wife, and thus neither do we. The author of work has commented here, and permission has been given. Having made a reasonable effort, there is no reason to fear legal prosecution, and no reason to object to this being featured on those grounds. Its an awesome picture. Let's feature it. pschemp | talk04:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking as the photographer and the husband and father of the subjects of this image, I think the request for written documentation is silly - not because you genuinely want to respect their rights (that is sensible and good), but because there is no way for you to verify that the person claiming to file the documents is in fact the model. As I have stated previously, if you really are concerned and you would like to visit us in North London to confirm all is in order then kindly contact me privately otherwise please do not assume malice or wrongdoing! --Salimfadhley (talk) 00:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not true, I've released copyrighted images to Wikipedia. I send an e-mail to foundation, they have a special e-mail address just for this, with a low-res of the image attached, give my full name, state that I am the sole copyright holder and hold all rights to the image and release it to Foundation with whatever copyright is appropriate (usually what an editor has requested). It's simple. I send them from work, under my name, but I've also released them on my home account (not a gmail/yahoo/hotmail type, but my ISP's account). Have your wife send a release from her non-flightly e-mail account to foundation. If Wikipedia already has a policy on model releases, follow that policy. Your response to this is strange, and it is making it seem far more important to get a model release before allowing this image to remain on Wikipedia for one more second. Think of the time this is taking when so little was required. That suggests that the little required is undoable for some reason. What reason? --Blechnic (talk) 00:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let me explain - you have no way of knowing the identity of the woman in the picture other than the information I have provided. If you distrust the information I have provided about this photo then why should you believe my claims about the identity of the subject? The release proves nothing. If you truly cared about ensuring that the "model" in this image was happy with this iamge then we could work out a way for an independent person to verify that we are who we claim to be and that we have no issues with our own family photos. Unless somebody is prepared to do this then all you really have is my word as a Wikipedia contributor in good standing... and you already have that! I've already offered that somebody who has genuine concerns is welcome to contact me directly. --Salimfadhley (talk) 00:41, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. You apparently will do or say anything but provide the model release, giving your wife her own voice in an image of her.
It is more than a little strange, now, all of your arguments, and protestations, and I sincerely hope that other Wikipedia editors will look at this and let it gnaw at them for a minute: how much time would it have taken his wife to write an e-mail versus how much time he and others have protested this model release. Demands that people trust him, personal accusations about whether or not I "care" about strangers on the internet.
This is a danger signal. If you were dealing with this person in brick and mortar world, your flight signal would be going off loudly. Pause for a moment and ask yourself, what is so hard about his wife signing a release, sending an e-mail? Why is this photographer discussing "trust" issues with perfect strangers on Wikipedia? --Blechnic (talk) 00:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The point has never been that Salim couldn't provide a model release. It is that he felt it wasn't necessary and he refused out of principle. An analogous scenario is if you asked him to squawk like a chicken to prove that his wife is happy with this image being released - he could in theory do what you ask him, but it would be logically irrelevent and prove nothing so he would refuse because it was silly and unnecessary. I don't see his refusal as being a danger signal at all. I'd probably do the same out of principle if someone tried to push me to do something I thought was silly. For the record, I mean the fact that nobody has the ability to prove it is his wife providing the release is what makes it silly. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)06:23, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So if this unidentifiable person sends an email from an essentially anonymous email account saying that it is ok to use a picture of her then everything is ok with you? But if the creator of the image, a Wikipedia contributor in good standing, gives his word that isn't good enough? I'm not understanding your reasoning. Why are you fighting this nom so vigorously when there are many, many other instances of images of someone that is actually identifiable being used. This is truly bizarre. Cacophony (talk) 03:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Blechnic, I concur with Cacophony. You've gone beyond the bounds of reason and logic and are bordering on harassing the creator of the photo now. Salim, just ignore him, you've proved your case sufficiently. pschemp | talk08:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Blechnic's concern for my wife's privacy is good admirable as is the desire to follow Wikipedia's rules, however I feel (he/she) is confused about how this release is supposed to protect our anybody's privacy. I would like to see a happy consensus on this (including Blenchnic), so I have set up a means of contacting my wife directly that would allow a very good verification of her identity which will not require international travel - you will need to contact me directly because I am not going to post her private details on this forum. --Salimfadhley (talk) 12:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think these bully responses are sufficient to establish the point I made needed made and has been validated. Salim, I've stated my position. That's all. --Blechnic (talk) 18:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support any Amazing photograph and per Salim's comments, thanks for uploading it. I've never read such ridiculous arguments then what is above. Epson291 (talk) 18:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support any undoubtably adds value to the article and could probably be added to other articles, size and quality are good enough. Maybe there needs to be a guideline for using pictures of living people on the main page (if there isn't already) but as it is I think the image satisfies all the criteria. Guest9999 (talk) 16:38, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - EV Lacertae is a faint red dwarf star 16.5 light years away in the constellation Lacerta. It is the nearest star to the Sun in that region of the sky, although with an apparent magnitude of 10, it is only barely visible with binoculars. EV Lacertae is a young star with a Metallicity extremely high. EV Lacertae is much smaller and dimmer than our sun. In other words, a tiny, wimpy star is capable of packing a very powerful punch. This flare was thousands of times more powerful than the greatest observed solar flare, that contain millions of times more energy than atomic bombs.
No, of course not. But neither is there a rule forbidding me to oppose... ;-) Seriously, I think an artist's conception of a scientific subject is seldom enc enough to be FP. --Janke | Talk07:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - very pretty but no real encyclopaedic value for the article it appears in. Does draw the reader in but provides no useful information - Peripitus(Talk)00:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't think I have the experience to comment on FPC (er, other than the image I'm already commenting on), but definitely I can say the caption needs rewriting for grammar and brevity. The image does seem encyclopedic to me -- provided someone who knows astronomy can confirm it looks technically accurate -- but it's linked to a stub article, which is tagged for references. I think it would be kind of embarrassing to link to that from the main page. Fletcher (talk) 01:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Speaking as an amateur astronomer, I can tell you that this is not very scientifically accurate. Nor is the technical quality very good, especially considering that it is an artist's rendering. The lack in accuracy would be forgivable if this were a particularly good artist's rendering, but that is simply not the case. Compare the image to this or this for example. It's tough to support astronomical artist's renderings, all of them have wow, but how do you differ them from typical space art? TheOtherSiguy (talk) 23:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Royal family of France in Classical costume during the reign of Louis XIV. Characters from l to r: The Queen Henrietta Maria of France, the Duke Philippe of Orléans (Monsieur), his daughter Marie Louise, his wife Henrietta Anne Stuart, the queen Mother Anne of Austria, King Louis XIV, his son Louis, the queen Maria Theresa of Spain and Anne Marie Louise d'Orleans (la Grande Mademoiselle).
Reason
This picture of the royal family is a beautiful description of royalty. It is the correct size for a featured picture. It also gives more understanding of the articles that it represents.
Comment I would suggest putting this in the main article before anyone notices. It doesn't cut it for the people here to be a picture in the gallery. victorrocha (talk) 02:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
..and neither does it cut it for the people here when an image is just crammed into an article for the nomination. --Dschwen03:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you stuck this picture over text it would probably be better than having it in the gallery, the encyclopedic value of this image is very high so anywhere would probably be better than at the bottom.(although I do not condone putting it randomly). victorrocha (talk) 05:19, 31 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - unnecessarily shallow DOF (not all of the cut face is sharp) for a studio shot. Per Capital the colours look odd but the detail is good. What looks like blue CA fringing around much of it - emphasised due to the white background. - Peripitus(Talk)04:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per above comments - the shadow is particularly afflicted by the blue tinging. To me it looks like the image was backlit which would explain the poor lighting/colours. --Fir000208:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Unappealing bokeh, prominent dust spot (or is it a fly? Doesn't matter, looks like a dust spot...), and what appears to be some strange pixelisation in the sky (unless my laptop screen is to blame - I'm not at my calibrated monitor now.) Anyway, this is not up to Fir's usual standards, IMO. --Janke | Talk14:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My guess is that its a fly. With that sort of DOF, a dust spot would be quite a large blob, not a little dot. I also do don't see any pixelation in the sky, but maybe I've missed it. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)15:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I can see what may be a dust spot just above the goat's tail in the sky. Its quite subtle though. I'm assuming you meant the one just to the lower-left of the goat's head. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)16:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good pick up on the tail dust spot - not sure if it's worth uploading an edit just for that tho as it's pretty negligble IMO (but I can if people want it). As for the fly dust spot I believe this is in fact a pellet of goat poo (not sure how he picked it up - probably didn't choose his bed all too carefully :)). Again if it's an issue it would be a snap to correct it --Fir000223:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Haha actually the spot that I was refering to is in the sky to the lower-left side of the goat's head, but yes, thats probably poo on his coat. Charming. ;-) Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)00:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I'd say this is exactly Fir0002's standard actually. Same resolution, same sharpness and well preserved highlights. Subject well positioned and isolated against a relatively neutral background. The goat's head/body does blend into the clouds slightly, but this is less obvious when viewed full sized. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)15:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There aren't any blown highlights (well, virtually - certainly none of the goat itself). Check the histogram. Eye drop the highlights. The brightest part of the goat that I can find has values of R=240, G=230, B=228 which is nowhere near blown - just bright, which is to be expected of a white coat on a sunny day. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)16:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Stuff eye dropper values, the head and back of the goat oar overly bright... poor exposure. Not up to Fir's usually quality at all. I dare say another example of when Fir should have reached for a polariser. Capital photographer (talk) 17:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, call a spade a spade then. You might consider it overexposed (debatable, thats subjective) but it doesn't have blown highlights. Blown means at least one of the RGB values, if not all of them, are 255. Since they are not, you can upload an underexposed edit, rather than outright oppose it. I've had a look and I think it looks a bit worse underexposed though. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)17:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah personally I really hate it when people upload photos where white objects are grey in order to avoid knee jerk BLOWN HIGHLIGHTS!! votes. This is a white goat for crying out loud! Don't limit your tonal range to <230,230,230! --Fir000223:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, agreed. Snow looks white too, not grey (but is tough to control exposure with). As far as I'm concerned the exposure is spot on, but you'll never please everyone! Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)00:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed it is white, and whether or not it is formally blown or not, there is an appreciable loss of detail and tone in those areas where brightness is too high. I tried to edit but it would seem to be beyond what post-processing can correct. Hence the number one rule of photography, get it right in the camera. Capital photographer (talk) 05:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No blown whitesSorry, but you're wrong - there is no loss in the white areas. I suggest you check histograms and make simple tests before suggesting blown whites. See test image, levels adjusted to show there's detail in the whitest whites... (I won't change my oppose, though - I don't like the splotchy bokeh...) --Janke | Talk05:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh quit harping on about histograms. It is too bright in those areas. Your test image is heavily edited, it has turned white to brown. In the original however, it is too bright. It is a good picture otherwise. Capital photographer (talk) 06:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Your test image is heavily edited, it has turned white to brown" - that was the whole point! Reduce the brightness/exposure, increase contrast, and see if the result shows any detail in the hair. Because the result does show full detail, there cannot possibly be any "blown highlights". I'm a newbie photographer and even I get that. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-06-30 13:35Z
The histogram was only shown to prove that you were completely and utterly wrong in your statements. Of course it was heavily edited in that it was underexposed and perhaps contrast enhanced but Janke could not have added texture that wasn't there in the first place, could he? Where is the lost detail? It all looks there to me. For a serious photographer, you seem to get the fundamentals wrong quite a lot. Now, either its a conspiracy and we're all out to get you, or perhaps you just need to take a step back for a second and wonder if the majority might be right in this case. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)06:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you are a member of the "photographic masters guild" aka "persons who need to make a club to make up for insecurities", so there is a bit of a mutual support pact going on. I would point out though that real photographers don't need to flaunt fancy titles or memberships. Anyway, Ken Duncan had a similar shot of a goat (may have being a sheep?) on the side of a green grassy hill with the sea in the background. Very bright conditions yet not overly bright. Crisp white but without glare. It's no longer online as it was a limited edition print. Capital photographer (talk) 08:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Trust me, there isn't a mututal support pact going on. It seems you're believing that it is a conspiracy and we are out to get you. I happen to agree with Fir0002 some of the time, but I have historically vehemontly disagreed with him a lot too. I didn't make up the guild and didn't have any input into it at all, but it doesn't imply we're insecure and it was a bit immature to bring that into the conversation. I think we have a professional respect for each other and that is the extent of it. Regardless, that has nothing to do with this discussion. I fail to understand why you brought up Ken Duncan's photo though. The qualities of it that you describe apply to Fir0002's goat too, if you ask me, and since it is no longer online, it is of limited importance since we cannot directly compare, so the impact of your mentioning it seems limited to name dropping and implying that his photo is better exposed without any way of demonstrating it. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)09:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Ken Duncan shot proves that a shot like this, in similar conditions and with similar composition can be done without the glare exhibited on the goats fleece in this photo. If it were something that could not be avoided, I would accept it. I do believe that had greater care being taken,exposure of the goat could have been better. And no, I do not subscribe to any conspiracy theory, but let's face it, you've been very harsh about fairly tiny errors in other shots, yet a blaring issues with this one is ignored. Capital photographer (talk) 11:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually you completely missed my point - the Ken Duncan shot proves nothing because we cannot see it (not publicly available to view). That was why I asked why you bothered mentioning something completely intangiable to either of us. , Even if we could compare it, it would be still be a subjective issue, unlike the issue of blown highlights, which either are or they aren't. I think you're also misusing the word 'glare' as the goat's coat does not have glare. If you're experiencing glare from the brighter parts of the image then perhaps you should adjust your monitor. As for the hypocrisy you accuse me of, I call faults as I see them. I don't see the faults you see in this image, and neither does anyone else who has commented, it seems. Again, are we all wrong? Or could it be you? Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)11:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support excellent detail, despite having those phantom blown highlights ;) — BRIAN0918 • 2008-06-30 13:30Z
Support Original (Strong Oppose Edit 1) Goats defecate and sometimes it ends up on them, it adds realism too the photograph and better context to the article. If we accept censorship of poo, then what will be next? Should Fir0002 go over and brush and bleach its coat? floss its teeth? spray the grass with paint to make it greener and the flowers more yellow? If we look for a cosmetic/"picture perfect" image of an animal then it becomes deceptive and unacceptable for encyclopedic content. It is the quality of the picture not it's subject that is of importance here. Unless there's some evidence that goats are particularly clean animals that constantly groom themselves free of feces, then the edit is inappropriate. Use the original. Dwayne Reed (talk) 05:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As ridiculous as that sounds, I agree. The fixing of the fly and dust spot were appropriate, but goats are somewhat dirty animals. smooth0707 (talk) 15:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support an edit without dust spot, leave shit and fly or Support original I live near goats, I tried to find one without flies around it the other day, but got tired of eating dust and smelling poo. It's an attractive composition. --Blechnic (talk) 06:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Animation of a "glider" (a pattern in Conway's Game of Life). The "game" consists of creating an initial configuration by filling certain cells on an infinite grid of square cells, then observing how the configuration evolves under the game's rules. The "glider" is an example of a "spaceship": a configuration that translates iself across the grid. One depiction of the glider has been proposed as a hacker emblem.Alt1
Reason
Very simple, but illustrates one of the best-known Conway's Game of Life patterns. Apologies to jjron, who observed on my PPR nomination of this image that it's only 84 by 84 pixels. But the concept that it illustrates is so simple that, in my view, a larger image is not necessary. (See here for a different sort of Game of Life animation.
support - great! my favorite animation in a while! - these things can be used to encode bits in game of life turing machines too.... so cool. deBivort18:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A great illustration and very encyclopedic. Small size isn't that important, IMO, as it conveys the idea very well. Kaldari (talk) 21:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I know we do not have a minimum size requirement for animations but this just too small and it would not be very difficult to create a larger version. Muhammad(talk)10:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But does a bigger image mean higher enc? FWIW this animation can be represented in a 5x5 square, anything more is just pure eye-candy. --antilivedT | C | G12:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily, but it does make it more usable. At fullsize this is tiny. Your arguments could be used completely validly for photographs, but everyone feels perfectly at rights to jump on anything less than the 1000px limit. I'm not saying this needs to be 1000px, but as I suggested at PPR, I'd reckon about 250px would make it more usable. Personally I'd prefer a stationary board with the 'glider' moving across it, more like the existing FP I guess (though I'm no real fan of that to be honest), rather than panning with the glider. Though it's a personal preference, that would easily account for the extra size. And if this is featured, then surely every variant image of the same quality is also feature-worthy, such as this: . --jjron (talk) 15:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's representing a data structure which at its largest is 3x3 binary "pixels" in size. How big do you want it? —Pengo18:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Why would this need a larger version? Some Wikipedians are way too obsessed with the rules. To the point that they blindly follow them forgetting their original intent. --Calibas (talk) 02:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The rules have nothing to do with it, after all this is animation that at present, has no size requirements. I do believe any image should however be seen easily by a majority of Wikipedia users. I fear those with more mature eyes may not see this easily at such a small size. 200x200 would be fine.
Comment: As it's made up of squares and lines, couldn't it be arbitrarily expanded to any desired size anyway, without the need to make a new file? By the nature of this animation, it's at unlimited resolution, like an SVG. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:05, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think your answer may lie in that 400px version that someone has foolishly dumped below; it's awful to look at and contains odd pixelations. That is, 'no', GIFs (animated or not) are not infinitely scalable like SVGs are. GIF is just a type of bitmap image format. --jjron (talk) 15:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose despite having provided the larger version. I'd hate to see this die on a technicality, but on grounds of it's subject matter it isn't anything special and the aesthetics aren't a selling point. Emergent behaviour from a few simple rules? See Fractal for the same concept in a much more attractive package. Mathematical significance beyond existing chaos and complexity theory? Doubtful. Hacker emblem? That's a long shot - it was proposed, no more. Other historical significance? Hmmm. Aesthetic appeal? At large sizes this gives me a headache. Dhatfield (talk) 22:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now per Janke. While the animation here nominated is more aesthetically pleasing, the existing FP shows the generator in addition to the gliders, making it far more relevant to the biological analogy. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 11:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support as creator - I don't think the small size is a problem for the purpose of the image, and moreover, the larger alternative image shown here is a simple rescaled version, which is not good, because it kills the smooth movement of the original animation. I can make another alternative, large AND smooth, and place it here, if required. RodrigoCamargo (talk) 17:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I should point out that one of the alternate animation proposals that Jjron proposed would be to show a stationary grid, with the glider "crawling" out of the side of the picture. As a counterpoint to that proposal, I want to observe that the glider is a mathematical construct on a (theoretically) infinite plane, so in a sense the nominated image, which in essence pans over the glider as it continues its infinite journey, is a more accurate representation. Spikebrennan (talk) 22:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Undisputed encyclopedic value, but is this the best reproduction of the document that we have? The scan is hi-res, but it looks to me like it has jpeg artifacts-- particularly visible in the diagonal black strokes of some of the signatures. Also, this is English wikipedia-- an English translation of the text of the document on the image page would help. Spikebrennan (talk) 13:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please suspend nomination. Wrote this up late at night; now that I'm more alert I realize this wasn't solely NASA but was instead a collaborative venture. Going to double check the public domain status. DurovaCharge!21:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just delete this image. Its named incorrctly anyways. And close/withdraw this nom. You can nominate the correctly named image when and if the copyright issue is cleared up. --Dschwen22:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Other than the NASA description suggests, this lake Üüreg Nuur is not even within the Uvs Nuur Basin, but in a seperate basin all by itself (although adjacent). Both basins together with several others form the Great Lakes Depression. As already mentioned, the correctly named image is at Image:Uureg Nuur.jpg.
Unless otherwise noted, images and video on JPL public web sites (public sites ending with a jpl.nasa.gov address) may be used for any purpose without prior permission, subject to the special cases noted below. Publishers who wish to have authorization may print this page and retain it for their records; JPL does not issue image permissions on an image by image basis.
Original - Natural roastedcoffee beans. Green coffee beans are first roasted (which makes them turn brown), and then ground in the process of making coffee.
Reason
I was looking through the FPs on the Turkish Wikipedia (no joke), and I saw this image, which also happens to be a Commons FP.
SupportThe problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. - Humphrey Bogart in CasablancaDurovaCharge!09:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly it's inappropriate to call him a "poser" just for using a variant on a photographic term - that is verging on a personal attack and is unacceptable. And secondly, if you cared to inspect the picture he has linked to, you would see that the DOF for a very similar subject has been handled in a different, and clearly to him, more attractive way. In other words, his opinion is perfectly valid, he has linked to another image to demonstrate it, and he is perfectly within rights to express that view, even if you disagree with it (for reasons that you have not even expressed in your 'vote'). --jjron (talk) 15:04, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dissing would certainly be the more common current slang in this context, but dishing could be taken as a variant form of something like the slang phrase 'dish it out'. Gee, it's easy to get those technical terms wrong though, isn't it? Good thing we're a forgiving bunch and don't worry too much about the odd mistake or variant use of terms! :-). --jjron (talk) 15:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To answer Spikebrennan's comment, I'd just like to say that I actually prefer there being a slightly shallow depth of field. It "frames" the image in a way; it does, after all, show several beans in high detail, so do we really need that many more? NauticaShades21:38, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No offense taken. Learn something new every day. (I've never claimed to be a photographer so thanks for the vocabulary lesson). My point about the shallow depth of field in this image is that the subject matter of the photo is all of the coffee beans, not just a few of them in a narrow band. I thought that a photo where more of the subject matter is in focus would be more encyclopedic; and I noticed from Fir's hazelnut picture that a wider depth of field (is that correct usage?) is possible. Notice that I didn't oppose. Spikebrennan (talk) 13:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I just saw a much better advertisement of coffee beans in the local coffee shop. It's just not that compelling of an image. If it's just beans, it has to be great, imo. --Blechnic (talk) 06:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The hazelnuts and the tomatoes are both beautifully lit, but these and the others just don't do it for me. I think they should be delisted and would support their delisting. I'm not sure about the EV of the raspberries and blueberries, as I don't know about Alaska's native flora; the image may have value beyond its simple aesthetic. The coffee shop beans were superbly well lit creating a gorgeous image. I suspect they were lit from the side with a lamp glancing off the top, then bouncing softly back. --Blechnic (talk) 03:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - View over the cirque of Pougnadoire and Saint-Chély-du-Tarn village, in the Tarn Gorges, from the cirque of Saint-Chély. This picture features the road D 907bis which goes alongside the Tarn river all along the gorges.
Reason
This image is of a large size and apparent technical quality (FP on Commons). It illustrates the village of Saint-Chély-du-Tarn and surrounds well, and is also used to illustrate the geography of Lozère. It would also add great value to the Gorges du Tarn once created. A high value panorama.
Support Stunning picture with an incredible amount of detail. It's just a pity the accompanying articles aren't that extensive. Fransw (talk) 15:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. You may be right, I'm not sure. It could be that sunny cloudless days are rare, and not representative of the subject, in which case a cloudless day would have slightly less EV as an accurate representation. I'm not saying this is the case here, I wouldn't know. Mostlyharmless (talk) 01:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would have prefered a clear sky as well. Actually, I do have another version of the same panorama without drop shadows and clearer sky, but sun wad behind me and lighting is very flat as a result. I would have had to wait a few more hours to have to sun litting the scene from aside, which isn't possible when lady sits next ;) (she was patient enough to wait next to me more than an hour). I also find the clouds shadows pattern interesting and think this gives this picture a little original touch. Let's see what other wikipedian think. Blieusong (talk) 06:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I love the picture enough and the detail, though, that I have to agree with Spikebrennan about the lighting and encourage you to go back and take it again and again and again, same exact composition, size, resolution, just get the god factor in the lighting. What a gorgeous image. --Blechnic (talk) 07:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Meets all requirements and has fixed previous anti-aliasing concerns that caused the delisting. Wikipe-tan has been featured in printed media in at least four five separate occasions:
gamesTM, a UK gaming magazine, used an image of Wikipe-tan as an illustration of maid cafés (p 30, Issue 48).
On October 12, Apple Daily ran a short article discussing Wikipe-tan, and how the GFDL license helped her spread across the Wikipedias.
On June 152007 the German newspaper Dresdner Neueste Nachrichten (circulation ca. 31 000) used Wikipe-tan on the front page as well as next to an article on the variety of manga.
British newspaper The Observer featured a picture of the cropped sailor fuku version of Wikipe-tan in the article "Girl geeks find manga haven" (World, Page 35, 2008-06-01, by Justin McCurry).
I am aware of the image's unsuccessful nomination at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Wikipe-tan SVG. I am relisting because I feel that previous discussion had several flaws, such as: misconceptions about the self reference guidelines [2], one editor who apparently didn't know SVG is scalable [3], previous consensus has established that Wikipe-tan is encyclopedic was not considered, the misconception that cartoon drawings are too simplistic to be FPs, as well as the misconception that one must like anime or this particular anthropomorphization of Wikipedia [4].
Also, since I was not aware of the last nomination I didn't get the chance to formally thank User:Editor at Large for her hard work at making the vector version. She has done what MER-C said was "irreparable".
Ultra Strong oppose A cartoon, a drawing. I don't care if it has appeared in print publications, just because something makes it into a magazine or on film doesn't make it worth anything. Capital photographer (talk) 13:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So are these. I think you'll have to elaborate if you expect your opposition to be accepted by the closer. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-06-26 19:29Z
I understand and respect your opinion, but I've got to ask, how many other featured pictures have been featured in a major printed publication? Less than 10% maybe? How about five major printed publications? She is regularly sought out as a high quality and free example, used by professionals around the world. -- Ned Scott21:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter if it was in a printed publication, as non-featured level pictures can be found in media around the world. I understand it was used simply because it was free media. SpencerT♦C22:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It does matter, because we're not talking about just some random publications. The image was being featured on the front pages of newspapers (to draw readers in. huh, I think that's one of the FPC criteria..), and as main examples of concepts like a maid cafe. The fact is that she's a pleasant, fun, cute drawing that draws readers in. We're not talking about random clip art on the company newspaper here, we're talking about significant uses. -- Ned Scott05:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It still loses enc., because even though it appears there to illustrate Maid cafe in the magazine, the article here, on wikipedia, doesn't have the image in it (and probably shouldn't). Saying that this is a "pleasant, fun, cute drawing that draws readers in," is a personal opinion, and could be said about many non-featured images. SpencerT♦C20:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When I brought up the printed examples it wasn't to compare the topic of those articles, but rather that they felt Wikipe-tan was of sufficient quality to not only print in the article, but be used to draw readers in. The encyclopedic value is in moe anthropomorphism and fan service, the two mainspace articles currently using this same image (though there are other main space articles using other Wikipe-tan images). It seems to me that you have more of an issue with those articles than you do this image if you don't see the encyclopedic value. -- Ned Scott05:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Change to Support I was looking at the wrong images...this is better than others we have of this type. Examples: 1, and 2. SpencerT♦C16:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As frustrated as I was with MER-C on the delisting a while back, I don't think he has anything personal against the image itself. In the last nom he simply closed it according to the discussion, and I can't fault him for that. In the de-list nom he cited the anti-aliasing issue, which was technical in nature. He's just doing his job, like any other image. -- Ned Scott21:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not so much about wanting to strongly support the image as much as it is being frustrated at the apparent bias towards anime and/or cartoons from this specific group of editors. Somehow something that's 2d, which probably took more work and skill than your average photograph, is of less value because we associate cartoons with immaturity. And if the editors here don't believe that it took skill to make Wikipe-tan, they're more than welcome to attempt to make something that has anywhere near the level of popularity that these images have. It's not as easy as one thinks. -- Ned Scott05:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to be a dick, but your previous rationale was "Does not have any encyclopedic value.", which is a bit absurd. You might not like it, but you've got to be crazy if you think that one of our only free examples of anime has no value. She's exactly the kind of example we needed, and perfectly illustrates not only Moe anthropomorphism, but Fan service (believe it or not, the term applies to non-sexual themes as well), and a ton of other concepts (check the usage stats on a large number of images on commons:Category:Wikipe-tan). -- Ned Scott06:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as per the same arguments as last time. Is there is a minimum time limit a picture must go through before it can be nominated again? Clegs (talk) 16:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I normally wouldn't re-nominate so fast, but there were several things I noticed that were not mentioned in the previous nomination. The most important of those was the use of the image in major, printed publications. -- Ned Scott21:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Going back to part of your original argument, WP:NOR isn't an issue here, as she has been referenced as an anthropomorphization of Wikipedia in at least one publication, her short article in the Apple Daily. -- Ned Scott21:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose My problem with it is the self-reference. I would support such an illustration without the self-reference. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-06-26 19:30Z
The image doesn't violate WP:SELF, and doesn't seem to be negatively effecting articles or reader experience. She does reference Wikipedia, but that doesn't seem to be an issue. -- Ned Scott21:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a self-reference, plain and simple. Whether or not anyone else has a problem with it is not of importance to me. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-06-27 13:07Z
It's not a problem, period. Why would referencing Wikipedia in this situation be a bad thing? Does it violate any guidelines or policies? Does it negatively effect the article? No. Please, don't get me wrong, I have no bone to pick with you, but you've yet to say why this is bad. -- Ned Scott05:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. After reading the article and examining the other images I don't think this is a good example of Moe anthropomorphism. It doesn't add much to the article. Technical quality aside, it's just not a great image.Dwayne Reed (talk) 19:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support The svg refutes the old quality issues; the nom refutes self-reference and cartoons. Dwayne Reed's objection about not being representative of Moe is harder to qualify, but I respectfully disagree; I think it's fine..--HereToHelp(talk to me)20:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Close It's proposed to be deleted on Commons. --205.155.149.137 (talk)
Comment Thanks to Editor at Large for redrawing as svg. In its favor, the drawing has garnered a fair amount of attention in the press, and seems to do a good job illustrating the concept. I guess I don't have any problems with it as being OR or SELF. There's nothing really wrong now, but there's nothing so exceptional or amazing about it either. Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 22:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose All other issues notwithstanding, it's just not that good that it should be featured - I mean I don't find it impressive as a piece of graphic design. (On a side note, and nothing to do with the voting process - cutesy childish characters on the front page of WP would turn me off reading further, and the point of FP is to attract readership. Just because a small sub section of Wikipedians feel this image is a good representation of WP, does not make it so, even if they have managed to promote it in a few publications.) Mfield (talk) 22:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And yet she's been on our front page at least three times already, and hundreds of readers have been quite pleased with her. Believe it or not, cutesy can be encyclopedic. Heck, it's a billion dollar industry that has had deep impact on our culture and society. Out of all the shows, movies, magazines, products and merchandize, Wikipe-tan still remains one of but a tiny few freely licensed pictures that we can use for articles on the core concepts. The Wikipedia community at large, our readers, and other 3rd party publications don't see this as a problem, so why should such an argument have merit here? -- Ned Scott05:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I might have misunderstood you a bit here. You seem to believe that editors were responsible for getting the image used in other publications, but this is not so. In fact, at least three different times the newspapers/magazines had to be contacted because they didn't understand the GFDL/CC license for the image, and didn't give proper attribution. It also doesn't matter if you feel she represents Wikipedia or not. This FPC isn't some kind of mascot vote. We're talking about her as a concept of anthropomorphism and anime. The fact that she is an anthropomorphization of Wikipedia is what caught our eye, but it is not why so many users (far form a "small sub section") have come to adore this character. -- Ned Scott06:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose and blech There's not even a main-space article about her, the article links to a Wikipedia space that gives internally or unsourced information about the Wikipedia actions regarding this. It's not even an original or compelling moe anthropomorphism, much less encyclopedic in even Wikipedia article space. If this were voted on in 2008, rather than 2006, it probably wouldn't be the Wikipedia moe anthropomorphism. Too much OR and Wikipedia sources. --Blechnic (talk) 04:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The vast majority of our featured articles don't have an article for the image. Some of our past featured images are of a "character", and they to do not have an article. Having a "Wikipe-tan" article is not a requirement to be a featured picture. Wikipe-tan wasn't voted on to be a mascot or to "represent" Wikipedia at all. Her usage spread on its own throughout the community. There's not a single tiny bit of original research here, and Wikipedia is not being used as a source. -- Ned Scott05:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article you should be pointing to is this one, and Wikipe-tan is not an article, it's a main space red link. The article you are pointing to is not on Wikipe-tan, it's no Moe anthropomorphism, what you've linked to. --Blechnic (talk) 02:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No confusion, I cannot find any sources in that article that state that it is anything whatsoever outside of Wikipedia, or that it even belongs in that article. I think it should be removed from the Moe anthropomorphism article, not featured on the main page. Should it ever be notable outside of Wikipedia, and actually merit an article with references, notify me, and I will consider changing my vote. --Blechnic (talk) 18:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While I can't read Chinese, we've been told she was featured in a Hong Kong newspaper called Apple Daily, discussing her and using her as an example of how the GFDL works. -- Ned Scott02:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If you (nominator) think the image is good and is valuable and encyclopedic, do you think you could hold this for a while and nominate it as a Valuable Image once Wikipedia launches this, since this image does not seem to be FP material? Muhammad(talk)08:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The image is FP material, it's just the tight-nit, close minded, elitist chumps here can't seem to accept anything that's outside of their own personal taste. Like I pointed out before, probably less than 10% of FPs will ever get seen in major printed publications, much less five. We've got nothing to prove here, and I'm a fool for having faith that the FP reviewers could be open minded enough to see what's already been well established.
Strong oppose How many times are things like this going to be put up for FPC? It's a joke, in my opinion. I've voted against it before and I'll continue to do so. Capital photographer was absolutely correct. ¢rassic! (talk) 20:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I renominated it because the last nom failed to point out some vital information. Heck, it originally didn't even cite a mainspace article or get Editor at Large's name right (no offense to EA). This renom is far more than reasonable, and you don't have to act like a jerk just because you don't like the image. Also, weren't you the guy who didn't even know that SVGs are scalable? -- Ned Scott05:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Whether I personally like the image has nothing to do with it. I don't personally see any real encyclopedic value in the image. As for not knowing about scaling SVGs, am I supposed to apologise for it?¢rassic! (talk) 08:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not really, but it is one of many misconceptions I wanted to clear up, even though it's a minor issue. I highly doubt it would have been the deciding factor in any listing. -- Ned Scott07:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
*Oppose - Where is the wow ? Look at other images that appear on the front page and they all look wonderful - this is just a well made, twee cartoon. - Peripitus(Talk) 01:01, 28 June 2008 (UTC) striking oppose per Diliff's reasoning - cannot support though - Peripitus(Talk)02:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Almost before my time that one. Looking through the original FP there were a supports "because she's cute", and opposes on the basis simply of "self-referential". Not a great debate from my reading. For me the image misses criteria 3...it does not make me want to know more - Peripitus(Talk)12:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support as an FP which was delisted for problems that have since been solved, and per the nominator's arguments scattered throughout the nom. --Herald Alberich (talk) 23:34, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. At this stage of the nom, its symbolic only it seems, but I don't really understand many of the reasons for opposition. It does appropriately illustrate a number of articles and is therefore encyclopaedic, regardless of how unimportant those articles seem to be to us. It is, to the best of my knowledge, high quality representation of that style of illustration. Certainly it is more polished than Janke's animated horse FP. I'm not putting down Janke's animation at all though, I'm just putting this image in perspective of other FP illustrations. To be honest, this argument covers about 80% of the opposers here and if I ruled the world, the closer would be a bit more demanding that reasons for opposes be rational, logical and, through thorough discussion in the nomination, proven to be logically correct, rather than simply take them as one person's opinion and leave it at that... As they say, opinions are like a$&holes - everyone has one. That doesn't make many of them right, and it is a shame when an uninformed majority pushes consensus in a direction that is patently wrong. I know the closer is an overworked and underappreciated job though, so don't take it personally at all. :-) Hmm, that turned into a bit of a rant. Sorry about that. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)22:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I was staying away from this discussion, but Diliff has won me over. I think one of the main reasons people are opposing is its frequent appearance on WP:FPC, which is not really fair. NauticaShades23:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Concur with Diliff and Nautica. Cartoons can be FP, too, and this is a pretty good (and free license) example of anime (I already supported it as a PNG). What's wrong with having this on the front page - for one more day?? --Janke | Talk04:32, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe she would be on the main page as the featured picture or a second time, even though this is a new image file. -- Ned Scott02:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. All of the issues that caused the original delisting has been addressed. Meets all FP criteria. G.A.S07:07, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The reason for delisting has been addressed, which ought to be reason enough to relist. Opposition based on self-reference grounds seem to involve confusing levels of categories. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment For full disclosure, a note of this nomination was left on Wikipedia talk:Wikipe-tan. Although I wanted to avoid leaving a notice there, to avoid vote stacking accusations, I would like to ask that we keep an open mind about editors who came here from that notice, and judge their positions on the merits of their comments. -- Ned Scott02:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about not disclosing that yesterday. The wikiproject news feed was updated per the very first nomination's example at the same time. I do however believe that this is not a vote, as the listing criteria does not include guidelines in this regard (unlike COMMONS:C:FPC): all comments should be judged on their merits. G.A.S06:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Diliff's excellent arguments. All of the Featured picture requirements have been met, as have all the valid concerns raised at the delisting of the PNG version. There is no valid reason to not make this a Featured picture. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe05:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, what? This isn't a "vote", and there are no requirements that a user must be logged in to contribute to this discussion. -- Ned Scott06:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While Wikipedia is not a democracy, voting is used to here to quickly see where people stand, and for the closer to see where the consensus lies. Of course, in a controversial discussion such as the one here, the closer (most likely MER-C or John254) will decide in which direction the consensus is based on this value of each contributor's arguments. That being said, ip users generally do not have suffrage (unless they sign in), as MER-C has pointed out[5][6]. NauticaShades13:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I do not have time to check all the supporters but there are many users who I have never seen before at FPC, who are part of the anime project, voting in support. Meat Puppets? Muhammad(talk)05:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that Wikipedia is not a democracy, this should not be an issue. There was only remaining issue at the end of the original delist, in which many persons voted, both oppose and support, who did not normally participate here. The closing statement of the closing admin was "No, I'm competent enough to assess that the aliasing is a very serious and irreparable issue. None of the keep opinions addressed this, and this is the reason why FPC is not a vote. Delisted . MER-C 01:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)". This has been now been addressed; and all comments should be judged on their merits. G.A.S06:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(to Muhammad) G.A.S. and myself have already noted this above. If the closer feels these comments hold no value, and is truly concerned about possible vote stacking, then they can just disregard all supports made after 05:39 (UTC), 1 July 2008 [7]. I would find that less insulting than injecting with little comments like "omg, this guy received an anime project barnstar". -- Ned Scott06:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Generally, for example in the next anime FPC or something else, it probably shouldn't be added to the Wikiproject page until the nomination is over, saying that it was either successful or unsuccessful. Just my 2 cents. SpencerT♦C13:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever the case, I don't think it is right to remove another user's comments from a discussion. It disrupts the flow and leaves others confused. That is why we have a strike out feature. Muhammad(talk)19:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm uncomfortable with this concept of moe anthropomorphism. The article is not particularly thoroughly verified/verifiable, and I'd prefer a real example over one specifically made for Wikipedia. Lastly, I'm with the person who pointed out that there are six lines missing in the SVG that are present in the PNG version. Shouldn't we be retaining the drawing style accurately? Otherwise, why bother making an SVG copy of the PNG at all? Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 12:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Very pretty. But for Narcissus pseudonarcissus it does not show enough detail, specifically to illustrate the appearance of this species as opposed to others in the same genus. Nice to look at, high artistic value, low encyclopedic value.Dwayne Reed (talk) 07:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Dwayne Reed. The artsy composition seems inappropriate for an encyclopedia (but wonderful for just about anything else). Cacophony (talk) 15:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Its a good picture certainly, but I don't think it adds to the article at or all, nor does it have a good caption. Seeing as it fails 1/4th of the FP criteria, I vote no. smooth0707 (talk) 15:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's a good photo, but when trying to demonstrate the article, there's no real need for 75% of the photo to be just empty grass. ¢rassic! (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support A fantastic image, both enc. and artistic. I don't know, there's something I really like about this image. The flower seems lonely. TheOtherSiguy (talk) 20:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A photograph of the flower and stem of the South African indigenous plant.
Reason
A well taken image, good detail of the flower itself. Decent lighting and contrast make this image visually appealing and the subject matter educational.
Comment. Sorry, but I don't think this is going to quite make it. It's a pretty awkward crop making it hard to figure out what's what, and focus seems to be in the wrong place (but it's hard to say for sure because I'm not sure what you were actually trying to focus on). Also looks to have significantly blown areas on the main subject, what I assume are the flower petals. The background is also very noisy. Could be worth trying Wikipedia:Picture peer review first. --jjron (talk) 15:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "After checking the criteria I believe that the image meets the standards set for a Featured Picture." I don't. To busy, taken from too high an angle and flash is too strong. Capital photographer (talk) 07:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Simply a boring and unimpressive shot. Having seen some fine shots of the English countryside and waterways in photo publications, I can say this isn't a canal at its best Capital photographer (talk) 07:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The largest known Theropods relative to a human.Edit 1 - Redrawn, incorporating information from seven sources. Please see the image page for details.
Reason
Large informative encyclopedic image that gets the reader's attention and makes the subject more interesting. Useful at a variety of articles.
Oppose I know that this is a size comparison thing, but the realism/accuracy of the drawings are no where near FP level. The front limbs and teeth of the dinosaurs are particularly amateurish/unrealistic, and I dislike how the humans left arm gets "absorbed" into his body. --Fir000209:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As it is suspended, I won't vote, but I find it a bit frustrating that I can't see the red one's tail - does it even have one? isn't that quite an important aspect of the size of them? Its the odd one out in the diagram in that respect. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)15:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Is the posture of the dinosaurs actually correct? All of them except the red one appear to be lunging for the human figure - or else they are falling on their noses. Rmhermen (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Postures have been peer reviewed at WP:Dinosaur Image review. Therapods had their long tails for counter ballance.deBivort20:02, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment One dinosaur is missing a leg and its bottom teeth, those with teeth are poorly drawn. They look like a child's drawings, cartoons rather than scientific visual aids that would be of value to someone doing research. Capital photographer (talk) 07:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While the illustration is fairly basic and appears to have been traced, the point of it is not necessarily to be an accurate and detailed depiction of the animals, just their basic shape and proportions to illustrate comparative size. That said, it would be more visually pleasing if the illustration was of higher quality. This is what separates typical from FP quality diagrams/illustrations so in that sense I have to agree with you. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)11:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Work with the alpha channel! Also, how instructive is this illustration really, given that these creatures are very similar in size? What do we learn from it that couldn't be illustrated using text? Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 11:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Despite the generally counterproductive nature of responding in FP noms, since we're heading into WP:SNOW territory fast anyway...
Even if this is true, it detracts from its value as a visual aid because it is strange to have four dinos with two legs visible and one with one leg visible. Also, the largest dinosaur is standing but we can see both its legs. Mangostar (talk) 18:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Capital photographer - skin colour is a complete guess in scientific circles, see this and this for a green and a red version of the same dinosaur. Since the colours are meaningless, why not help the visually impared? The teeth on the lower jaw of the Carcharodontosaurus are not shown because the source images do not show teeth - quite possibly because a lower jaw has not been found. I don't intend to 'make up' detail. Not sure if your comment regarding the poor quality of illustration of the teeth is with respect to the edit - teeth in the original were admittedly dire due to pixelation in the source. In response to your concerns about scientific content, see the response to Papa Lima Whiskey below.
I know that. Hence I said more organic colours, in other words, colours more common in nature. I didn't ask for an approximation of what dinosaurs may have being coloured like, just some more apropriate colours other than bright red, green,etc. Capital photographer (talk) 06:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Diliff - red tail now inserted in proportion with the dinosaur, accuracy improved beyond the information available in the original down to approx. 1/10 pixel of the original. No comment with regards to aesthetic 'quality' - I don't have the required perspective. Dhatfield (talk) 15:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Papa Lima Whiskey - firstly, thanks for your advice, but there are technical reasons for not working with the alpha channel:
Some software does not support gradient transparency, reducing interoperability and maintainability for the image
The WP renderer has problems with some transparency mappings, as I experienced with this image.
Secondly, you may not be looking as closely as a student would. Among what we can learn is: Tyrannosaurus rex had very small forelimbs relative to the other Theropods and two fingers, but was more heavily built in the body with a larger head. Spinosaurus, the largest, had a 'sail', a very uneven distribution of teeth and unusual skull shape relative to the other large Theropods. Gigantosaurus, despite its name, was a large but otherwise 'middle of the road' Theropod with a balance of power (Tyrannosaurus Rex) and agility (Mapusaurus). Mapusaurus and Carcharodontosaurus, despite their size, were built for speed and agility with body shapes similar to the smaller Eustreptospondylus. If you were a student who dug a little deeper you would note that according to the Theropod phylogeny, Gigantosaurus, Mapusaurus & Carcharodontosaurus belong to the family Carcharodontosauridae, explaining their similarity while Tyrannosauroidea and especially Spinosauridae are on divergent branches. You might then notice that Carcharodontosauridae isn't shown in the phylogeny and ask the maintainers why, thus improving Wikipedia. Anything can be illustrated with enough text but a picture is worth 50 words, minimum. Dhatfield (talk) 15:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is not easy to see the differences in overall size between these, due to the lack of transparency that I mentioned that would also allow you to follow body outlines more closely. The last time that Wikipedia had problems rendering a file, the nomination was suspended until the bug got fixed, rather than the file promoted with the necessary features removed. To illustrate differences in arm length or shape, it would be better to make a separate diagram, because people won't know what to focus on with the minimal information you initially provided to go along with this image. (I could also mention that the detail on jaws and forelimbs feels vague for a vector image, but Fir already said that.) Finally, making one diagram to point out that another one is missing something borders on WP:POINT and is not a good reason for promotion. We have an abundance of templates for pointing out problems. Please use these, or be bold yourself. Thank you. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 15:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The bug you refer to was my edit :) Unfortunately, given that flesh is not preserved by the fossilisation process, all images of dinosaurs are artists conceptions - I'd rather not add to a long and proud tradition of making stuff up. Fair comment regarding the caption, but I'd prefer if it was written by someone more knowledgeable than myself - deBivort? I don't get the WP:POINT reference - this image was in no way made to point out the phylogeny problem, I just learned it while researching the answer to your question. You think I'd do that to achieve that? I'd praise the man who channels his frustration so productively. Fir0002's comment was regarding the original and the edit was a direct result - please keep the crit specific, otherwise I can't work from it. Thanks. Dhatfield (talk) 16:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First, I'm saying if you are going to use the effect of this image on the fate of another image as an argument to get this image promoted, then, yes, I do believe you are committing a WP:POINT violation. Maybe that is not what you were aiming for. Second, I believe I have been quite specific in my criticism. General consensus among palaeontologists suggests that the shape of hands and fingers closely follows the bone structure. We have no reason to assume otherwise, as bulky soft tissue on the appendages is a very rare occurrence among extant animals. So if you want to draw accurate hands, just imagine the bones with a bit of skin on them, and you'll be fine. Alternatively, sticking to the skeleton entirely would be an acceptable solution afaik. In your diagram you (or rather, the people whose drawings you used as models) have already extrapolated soft tissue between the ribs and pelvis, for instance. The bottom line for me is that an image should not get promoted in spite of technical insufficiencies, just because the requirements haven't been implemented yet. In fact, part of your argument seems to equate to saying that because it's possible to make video players that interpret various video formats incorrectly (and there probably are some), we should promote stills instead of videos whenever a video is required. I hope this makes it clear enough that you are acting on a flaw of logic. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 17:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawn as co-nominator Fair comments. Individual dinosaur images of sufficient quality to constitute FP material when combined should constitute high quality achievements in their own right. Dhatfield (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Utah teapot or Aladdin's lamp? Iconic 3D model in front of a warped mirror. The pigment texture on the teapot is the Julia set, a fractal.Alt1 - Simplified.Alt2 - Modern render of an iconic model developed by Martin Newell (1975).
Reason
The Utah teapot is one of a handful of iconic models from the early development of 3D computer graphics, having been developed in 1975. This render of the teapot uses unique textures, bump maps and lighting to demonstrate key 3D rendering techniques like texturing, manipulation of lighting, highlights & shadows, radiosity and reflection. Image rendered in POV-ray.
Oppose Confusing picture, no need to include all 3D design/rendering techniques in one particular image. Black spot (that take over 10% of image) distracts viewer from the main subject --Mothmolevna (talk) 15:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Alt2 Meets all of the FPC criteria very well for being a rendered model. The encyclopedic value of this render is undeniable. The reflection of the spout does concern me a little because it doesn't reflect the curves of the teapot very well(IMO). Try corpping the picture of the Alternative from the bottom and left side it's way off center. victorrocha (talk) 17:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that they are not in the article means that they have not passed the peer review of those editors that improve and maintain the article, being featured is not an argument for including an image in an article; it should show its worth independent of status - without being in an article these images have not done that. The "edits" "alts" differ significantly from the original image (which is in the article) and I don't think it should be taken for granted that the new image would just be accepted. Guest9999 (talk) 00:16, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support alt2 The image labeled original is not as typical as alt2, and has too much other distracting things in it. But you ought to state the source clearer on the image's page, atm it just says the model is from 1975. Narayanese (talk) 18:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand your objection. Are you suggesting something between the original and simplified versions, or are you referring to the subject matter, where encyclopedic value is not in question. Dhatfield (talk) 23:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose I feel like you've nominated two completely seperate images here, especially considering how they are used in different articles for different purposes. In addition, the old caption makes a somewhat confusing Aladdin's Lamp reference, and the new caption "The Utah Teapot" (on the article), is uninformative. smooth0707 (talk) 02:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
3D graphics consists of two distinct steps: modeling and rendering. In the context of this FPC it is the model that has significance, not the form in which it is presented. The image that is selected by the community as the best representation of the model (so far, Alt 2) is used, with appropriate captions, in numerous articles. Dhatfield (talk) 07:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am only beginning to understand how the system works. Alt 2 has only existed for just over 48 hours. Guest9999's hit-and-run oppose and your comment regarding the confusion created by having different versions in different articles encouraged me to clarify the use of the image. For one editor to oppose on the grounds that an edit is not in an article while another editor opposes on the grounds that it was recently added to articles is confusing. I see the shadowy hand of The Photographer's Cabal at work here ;) Dhatfield (talk) 15:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I went to great lengths to avoid them, actually. It took about 45 minutes for me to take a sequence completely free of people! This is an exposure blend so any people in the frame would end up as ghosts as they moved between each exposure. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)22:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hahaha, you've obviously photographed Canary Wharf before... dozens. Even had the head of security come out of his office to have a word to me but was evidently satisfied I wasn't a terrorist. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)06:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That really ****es me off - I got 'stopped' on the steps of Waterloo station once for taking photos with my 350D, despite the fact that there were hundreds of people with their little point and shoot Sonys around me. I hate having to explain the law to policemen, especially the ones that think having a more expensive, professional camera means you're more likely to blow yourself up. Oh, and Support. —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ16:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, its absolutely ridiculous.. Thing thats different about Canary Wharf though... Its private property. I actually work in Canary Wharf at the moment and wasn't even aware of that. The entire development isn't actually public land. In this case, you don't have the same rights to take photos as you would in public and they have the right to ask/force you to leave. The thing is, they have to temper that right with a bit of flexibility since almost 100,000 people work there, there are hundreds of cafes, restaurants and shops in which (according to the article) half a million people shop each week, there is a tube station, etc. Obviously these things are for the public consumption so it ends up being much like a shopping centre - unless you're up to mischief, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they're too heavy handed with you. Still, what sort of security risk is an SLR camera? A terrorist would use a camera phone or something that he could obscure. Or he'd simply act like all the other P&S tourists. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)17:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Same thing happened to me in Paris. Since rise of terrorism, we are not allowed to take any picture on any train station anymore (but it's easy get an authorization). Silly thing, if I really wanted to spy, I would choose a P&S camera over a giant camera+lens+tripod combination. But on the other hand, policemens only do what they are told to.... Blieusong (talk) 17:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Excellent shot and congrats on getting it people free! Out of interest what time of day was this taken at? It kinda has the "feel" of early morning (particularly the sky) but with the lights in the windows etc I'm almost thinking late evening? --Fir000222:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quite late actually. 9:45pm according to my EXIF. Remember though that we're practically right on the summer solstice here, and London is quite northern. It was early dusk. Exposure blending has lightened the foreground slightly though, without overexposing the sky. If you look at the sky you can see the grey wispy clouds common just after the sun has set and is no longer illuminating them, but is still keeping the sky quite bright. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)22:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that - and I'm not doubting that it could/was taken at dusk, I was just genuinely unsure and interested to know! --Fir000200:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There is a stitching error on the rightmost front facade and the perspective is overcorrected on the left side, making the building lean outwards. --Dschwen12:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair call on the stitching error, I didn't even notice that one. Not sure how it even happened since it was shot on a tripod. Should actually be fairly trivial to mask in photoshop - I'll give it a go as it wouldn't fundimentally alter the image I don't think. I'm not sure that you're right about the overcorrection on the left building though. I see all the vertical lines as vertical (give or take a single pixel anyway). Can you show me where it is not straight? Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)13:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hang on, I can see an ever-so-slight lean on the far edge of the building, but even then its probably only 3 pixels lean from end to end. Given that any perspective-uncorrected photo is going to have 'significantly more lean by definition, I don't see it as a serious problem. I didn't claim it was a mathematically and symmetrically perfect image. :-) Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)13:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, but given the upward angle of the camera I found your perspective correction a bit too much. It looks just irritating to me, as if the buildings were leaning outward. To find that they actually are leaning outward tipped the scale. --Dschwen15:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Have you noticed the stitching errors on the foremost part of the ground too ? ;) I also agree with Daniel on the perspective correction. I believe we "naturally correct" perspective so we see two parallel lines as actually diverging. Had you taken the same pic from a higher point, it would have looked good. Maybe it's worth a try not to stick to strict vertical lines and make them converge a little (it's almost free after all). Blieusong (talk) 17:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I can see tiny stitching errors on the ground, but so small that it almost isn't even a pixel out of alignment, it is more the anti-aliasing is out of alignment! I could mask them too, but I don't think I'll bother. :-) I couldn't take this shot from a higher point unless I had a really big ladder that I could put a tripod on! Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)18:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I understand you couldn't take it from higher, but point out that the low point of view doesn't suit perspective correction IMO. I give you coordinates of stitching errors, in case we are not talking about the same (because to me they are more than a pixel misaligned) : (1099, 1682), ..., (1070, 1567). alignement of these errors make me think it's from a separation between the two leftmost shots on the lower row. Same on the right side (but less visible). I also see (1493, 582) and around on the middle tower (I'll stop nitpicking for tonight ;) ). Blieusong (talk) 18:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe its more of an optical illusion caused by the Mercator projection on these specific buildings? Do you see the same effect if you switch to another projection? Mfield (talk) 18:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose It wouldn't bother me to see this image on the main page, but it's too crafted without the beauty of a large format camera. All I can think while looking at this image is taking out the 4X5 and getting it set up perfectly. --Blechnic (talk) 06:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome to try. A medium format camera won't really change anything significantly though. You would still need to stitch multiple frames together to get the field of view (about 150-160 degrees in this case I think) and perspective. Also, you would be hassled by security guards even more so with a camera like that, they'd probably assume it was a bomb! And you would still have the problem of people intruding on the shot (unless of course you wanted them there) with the added problem of wasting film when that happens. And finally you wouldn't have the dynamic range ability since you couldn't exposure blend. All of this while the sun is rapidly setting. Sometimes environmental factors affect your ability to take the perfect photo. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)07:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And sometimes a photo is great enough that you want that little bit more. Sometimes it's okay without that little bit more, sometimes it's not. --Blechnic (talk) 16:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We always want more, but my point was sometimes it simply isn't realistic or possible, and that idea of reshooting with a medium format camera would only add to the complications, not solve them. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)22:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Amen, I can't even envisage anyone attempting this shot with medium or large format film. The digital era pretty much made this shot possibleMfield (talk) 02:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think my point is, this image leaves me focused on the more I want, rather than what it gives. It's a nice image, but it is, imo, missing some oomph. It just doesn't do it for me. --Blechnic (talk) 03:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is multiple occupancy, lots of tenants on different floors. Its about 250 metres tall compared to 200 with than the other two, but closer to the camera so it looks a lot bigger, proportionally. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)14:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A 1943 United States military map of world ocean currents and ice packs, as they were known at the time.
Reason
Wikipedia doesn't have a featured picture yet of world ocean currents. This hand drawn United States military image from 1943 certainly has historical value, and is by far the most detailed image of its type on either Wikipedia or Commons. Was already used in three articles when I found it. Restored version of Image:Ocean currents 1943 (borderless).png.
Support. Very interesting, good enc value. Would be even more if we could show how our knowledge has improved since then. Clegs (talk) 20:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support. It's a great picture, but my only concern is that the color and size of the map markings make it quite difficult to read as a thumbnail, even a very large one. Obviously, however, it can be easily viewed at full resolution, so this isn't a big deal. NauticaShades21:29, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, my worry is about a 1943 map being the centerpiece of this... shouldn't we have a non-scanned newer map? I don't know if either our mapping of currents is better or if they have changed but it seems odd that a 1943 map is the centerpiece for these articles. grenグレン23:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good point; I shared the concern. Multipart response. First, it's definitely very valuable as a historic map (World War II, major Naval power). It's also far more detailed than the newer maps we have. I've contacted two specialists in the field to determine whether it's sufficiently accurate for current articles. If they reply in the negative I will take it down from the current articles; it'll still be highly encyclopedic at history of navigation. DurovaCharge!00:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support assuming still accurate by modern standards. Would still support though if it were clear by article placement that it was historic only and not to be relied upon as the most up to date. Wouldn't want Wikipedia to be blamed for someone being lost at sea! ;-) Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)09:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Nice shot. I also think this is a pretty good example of a natural convex lens and it might be worth adding it in Lens (optics); possibly as a replacement for Image:GGB reflection in raindrops.jpg which IMO doesn't work as well as this for an example of lenses in nature since the droplets are on a man-made surface (glass). --Fir000207:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Two F-22A Raptor in column flightEdit 1 by Diliff. Selectively reduced noise in parts of the image (F-22s and exhaust gases) where detail would not be lost as a result
Reason
Great Image of F-22 Raptor. The front F-22 is well focused while the column formation provides the wow factor.)
Yeah, there is a bit, but I wouldn't call it overly conspicuous or detrimental. The trouble is, noise reduction can be done, but it turns the detail in the hills behind to mush. I've just made an edit with selective noise reduction only of the planes and of the exhaust fumes where there is no detail that would be missed (feathered so it blends nicely). Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)17:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support edit1 I have no problem with the haze - it's inevitable with a shot from the front in column flight that the rear plane will be photographed through the jet exhaust of the front plane. Mfield (talk) 03:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose The exhaust from the leading raptor just spoils the image. Also im not keen on the angle this has been taken from either. I love the aircraft but not this photo unfortunately. SeddσntalkEditor Review22:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think its odd that people are having a problem with the jet exhaust. It's a jet fighter, it has jet exhaust. This is WP FP, not Commons FP, and if anything this adds to the encyclopedic value of the image. If the front plane were obscured by exhaust that would be one thing, but the second plane is really just a background object and when you put things behind a jet fighter in flight, they aren't going to be sharp. Mfield (talk) 22:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem with just the exhaust but given that the first jet only occupies the bottom 2/3rds of the image, to me is seems that having the top third be occupied by a jet just doesn't do anything for this image and in my opinion decreases the quality of the image. I'm more than aware that jets have jet exhausts, i have studied jet propulsion in enough detail to realise that, but in my opinion there is too much of this image that detracts from the leading aircraft. SeddσntalkEditor Review00:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough - I wasn't by any means targetting you with that btw - hence a general comment rather than a reply to your oppose. It only sprang to mind to make the comment as a number of poeple had mentioned it weakening their support. Mfield (talk) 00:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose First, I think, it has a bad composition: All the plants are really distracting. In addition to that, it's blurred and very noisy at full resolution. All in all low technical quality and —because of the points mentioned before— not even that high encyclopedic value. —αἰτίας•discussion•19:34, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Original - Support Edit Poor quality both technically and aesthetically in the original. Not enough impact and needing a crop. The edit is much nicer, support. Greater impact.Capital photographer (talk) 06:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Brilliant image, I especially like the way you don't even see the animal at first. Nice composition, good detail. ProfDEH (talk) 18:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't need cropping. The interesting thing about chameleons is the well-known fact that they blend into the background. Usually photographs completely fail to demonstrate that (look at the other examples on the article) and here you really do see it. The bright flowers help a lot with that. ProfDEH (talk) 12:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Crop - Plenty of detail in the subject itself. I wonder if it might benefit from a tighter crop to make the subject more visible in the thumbnail? I prefer the new cropped versionNoodle snacks (talk) 08:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support The point of this picture is to show how well he blends in with his surrounding, not to show an isolated chameleon. Does an excellent job of doing that. Clegs (talk) 15:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Next time tell the plants to go away? What's the EV in deleting the surroundings from a well-blended chameleon? Love the colors, it's a fun image. --Blechnic (talk) 06:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Being an encyclopaedia, we try to illustrate the whole animal, not just the parts that happen not to be obscured when the photograph is taken. These creatures don't exactly run away at a flying pace, so there's no good excuse for the random flowers in the foreground. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 15:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The good excuse for the random flowers is habitat. Encylcopedias contain illustrative images of the entire animal as an example of form alongside images of animals in habitat, because creatures do not live in isolation. Our articles are not mere descriptions of the morphology of an animal, they discuss its habitat, its ecology, its life cycle, including reproduction, maturation, means of defeating animals that prey upon it. If they don't cover all of this they're called and classified as articles in need of work: stubs and start class. --Blechnic (talk) 16:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, this is a picture of a pet? I'll go look. I didn't understand that. --Blechnic (talk) 17:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Oh, feral. Well, what's your point, though? It's not a non-chameleon because it's feral? --Blechnic (talk) 17:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - This iron structure marks the entrance to the museum and reflects the science/industrial nature of the museum
Reason
Its a good size, good colours and shows the striking iron structure that marks the loaction of the museum which is one of the largest of its kind in the uk
Oppose the subject is at an angle, not good to start of with, and the lighting is not of any use, this would take a lot of work to edit, if you wanted it to still be considered, but at the moment, I am opposing it. --Amckern (talk) 05:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Earthworm is the usual name for the largest members of Oligochaeta in the phylum Annelida. The earthworm's feces are deposited in form of casts on the surface or deeper in the soil, making minerals and plant nutrients available in an accessible form.Alternative 1
Reason
This is the first image I'm nominating as an FP taken with my new camera, over which I spent all my life savings:-). This picture IMO is encyclopedic and adds value to the article. Good quality too.
Well in general, it lacks wow factor. Whether or not it's a pile of.... well, it's not an exciting image. I wouldn't consider among Wikipedia's finest images. So in terms of FP Crtieria, I guess 1 and 3. The image looks as though it has being over lit by flash and saturation therefore looks quite low. The surrounding dirt is distracting and the focus is no tightly enough controlled. Finally, it only appars very small in the article, and given the subject is small in the frame, isn't very noticeable so I'm not sure how much value it adds to the article.Capital photographer (talk) 16:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The surrounding dirt IMO does not distract from the image. There is a distinct separation between the dirt and the feces, and the dirt shows the location and orientation of the feces. The presence of the dirt is therefore important. In the original image, the feces cover more than half of the frame and are of a different color, such that even at thumbnail size, one can differentiate between the feces and the sand. Finally, we can not have a whole article about earthworm feces, can we? Its playing its part where it is ow, demonstrating the nature of the feces. Image also added to Feces. Muhammad(talk)18:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Distinction is only apparent in original, not alternative and the colours are still very similar. The subject is a good idea, but lighting and comp in this case does no emphasise the... subject... enough. Capital photographer (talk) 05:37, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for composition and focus. Conceptually I like the idea of worm shit, but try some better lighting, reflect the natural light back, or take early or late, decide what should be in focus, probably everything, but you could macro it with just the shit emphasized. --Blechnic (talk) 21:53, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Eielson Air Force Base, Alaska — The Aurora Borealis, or Northern Lights, shines above Bear Lake
Reason
The Image is of absolute amazing quality and has high encyclopedic value (It won the Commons Featured Pictures Contest in 2006) It is used in a few articles here on the en and from what I can see it truly seems to be one of our best pictures here on Wikipedia the quality is amazing as well as the composition.
Weak Oppose Though visually pleasing as a thumbnail, when full, it's grainy, odd yellow spots in the snow, and bad lighting near the building in the back. SpencerT♦C02:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support It is a beautiful picture. The yellow spots in the snow are being caused by the polar light, so they should be in their. Yes, the picture is a little grainy, but no picture is perfect. If you take in all other aspects of the picture, it still remains a featured picture in my opinion. I also don't find the graininess disturbing. P.S. Foul language doesn't improve the featured picture section either. Pay some respect to other people their opinions. Massimo Catarinella (talk)
Support - it's a stunning photo of the Aurora. None of the technical issues take away from this. Has enough serious encyclopedic wow to overcome any other problems - Peripitus(Talk)05:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Does anybody bother to read other comments? TSP's very first comment in this nom linked to the previous nom. --jjron (talk) 16:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's a featured picture on 3 other language WPs and the Commons, surely there's enough good reasons. This is just a terrific photo, imo. Much better than the original. ¢rassic! (talk) 19:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose. It may be beautiful, but the quality just doesn't cut it. Look at the back tree line, for instance: it's practically a smear of color, not anything distinctive. NauticaShades21:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I agree that it is an excellent example of an aurora, and infact for this kind of long exposure photography the quality of the image is surprisingly good. The only thing which I'm not sure on is the WB issues raised in the previous nom. This image looks better than the original from the previous nom, but it'd be good to have the photographer's take on the WB as it's hard to judge. Unfortunately we can't judge the WB based on the snow as it would have been tinged by the aurora and hence not a neutral tone. --Fir000208:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All the others in the article have a greener tinge, making me think that the original colours may have been closer to the truth. I don't believe that a Nikon CCD from 2001 could have been this far off colour-wise, although CCD sensors do tend more towards warmer colours. Having said that, all the white balance algorithms used on this image seem to agree. But when looking at the stars in the sky, I can't find any consistent bias towards any hue. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 11:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support as I did before. Stunning visual image. Completely natural colors are pretty impossible to get in a situation like this. Just go and re-shoot this, see how easy it is... ;-) --Janke | Talk07:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support A beautiful subject, I guess difficult to catch. Quality is more than good enough to me. Colours accuracy is not really a concern to me, seems good, and who could prove accuracy of the colours for all current FP ? Blieusong (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A Painted Arachnis (Arachnis picta) found near Crestone, ColoradoEdit1 - remove color balance shift and smooth/lift background gradient by Mfield
Reason
A high detail macro, illustrating the subject clearly. A small part of the foreleg is out of focus, but the rest of the body is visible in high detail, as are the other two legs.
Support Editors might fuss over dof issues, and pick here and there, but the image is gorgeous. The aesthetic appeal is huge. I could wallpaper a room with it. --Blechnic (talk) 06:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC) Well done edit, by Mfield, also. Either one, lean a bit towards edit at low res. --Blechnic (talk) 16:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's now in Lepidoptera, along with another much needed labeled illustration. I'm divided over which better illustrates scales however. 'Lepidoptera wing' works better as a thumb. Mostlyharmless (talk) 01:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The other images in the articles are much more illustrative of the subject. While interesting and mostly well focused, this one doesn't show much of the organism it self. It would be better suited for an article on coloration and/or camouflage.Greener Cactus (talk) 20:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A Perched Long-billed Corella (Cacatua (Licmetis) tenuirostris). Long billed Corellas are popular pets in many parts of Australia. This may be due to their ability to mimic words and whole sentences to near perfection.Edit 1 by Diliff. Darkened feathers slightly so that the feather hightlights show the texture better
Reason
A high quality image of a Long-billed Corella. It seems to fit the appropriate criteria.
Comments Please do not just remove discussions from a nomination. If you feel it does not belong there, then re-direct it elsewhere. Muhammad(talk)18:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Muhammad. I know its easy to just say you support as per the nom, but it is expected that you provide a reason, just the same as an oppose. In this case it won't matter, but in some controversial noms it is important for obtaining consensus. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)22:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support for aesthetic appeal, the colours are gorgeous. It is also somewhat creepy, giving it an additional odd appeal. I think a lot of people would click on the image on the main page. --Blechnic (talk) 06:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That depends whether you can fix your display. ;-) The bird's feathers are not overexposed, although they are lacking slightly in texture on the back. I don't believe its a problem with the photography though. Its just the way the feathers look. I have found that you can make the texture more visible if you apply about 20% highlight reduction in the Photoshop Shadows/Highlights tool. I'll upload it as an edit and let others decide. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)21:57, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral It's a beautiful picture (and I'd add, as often), but I think it should be sharper at that size. I miss some details and texture on the legs, but maybe I'm asking too much which is why I don't oppose. Blieusong (talk) 11:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly is a good picture, but featuring 1.6MP photos which are not completely sharp is pretty 2005. Ack Blieusong. --Dschwen14:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support The important part is sharp. It's arty. I love the composition, the colour, the background diffusion to copy a couple of other support votes above. I love the result of the composition and will strongly oppose any sharpening. Blow it up big and enter it in a an art photo contest, also. --Blechnic (talk) 06:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose DOF makes me feel like I'm supposed to be looking at the grass or just the front part of the body. Other images in the article appear equally good.Greener Cactus (talk) 20:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Low quality scan. Suggestion: Put numbers only in a second, "descriptive version" of the image on the image page. --Janke | Talk09:00, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I agree with you, I just did not want the picture to substitute the original picture, that is why I chose worse quality and black and white version - it is a descriptive picture for the original (which it should link) - I stand down. --Aloysius (talk) 09:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both Due to low technical quality: It's very blurred at full resolution/nearly nowhere in focus. The Alt1 is even worse: It's blurred everywhere. —αἰτίας•discussion•18:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The Art Gallery building at the Huntington Library, San Marino, California. Once the home of Henry E. Huntington (1850–1927) and his wife, Arabella (1850–1924), the Huntington Art Gallery opened in 1928 as the first public art gallery in Southern California. The building and 120 acre gardens have been used in many movies, including as stand in for the White House gardens.
Reason
A very high quality stitched image of recently renovated building in the gardens
I'm pretty sure it isn't, not by the grid in PS anyway - scroll the roof tops up against the top of your window and check. Unless you are looking at something else as a reference? Mfield (talk) 16:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose - Building seems like an attractive, but not especially stunning subject. The facade seems like the most architecturally interesting aspect, but there is such a large amount of grounds and shrubbery in view I don't think you get that much bang for your buck. Also, it's not the photographer's fault, but the diagonal line the lawnmower left on the grass creates the illusion that it's off-center; at first I kept thinking the camera is just to the right of the front door, though I don't believe that's the case. Those are kind of nitpicky criticisms so I give it a weak oppose. Fletcher (talk) 04:50, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, its of more encyclopedic value IMHO if it includes the garden setting given the article covers the whole site and the only way to do that with the landscaping the way it is is from lower than the house. That's the way it is in real life. This is actually cropped quite a lot, the original has way more lawn in the foreground. The other problem with shooting here is that the gardens are only open from 10.30am - 4.30pm so that precludes shooting at a more photogenic time of day to increase the WOW factor. Mfield (talk) 04:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak, encouraging, please-keep-photographing-at-the-Huntington oppose A superb location for photography that's home to several FPs-in-waiting. This isn't quite one of them, but by all means keep going. Suggest the theme gardens, particularly the Japanese Garden and the Desert Garden. Space is cramped at the Zen Garden, so not sure if that would work out, but maybe some close-ups of the magnificent bonsai? By all means do return, and try to set up closer to sunrise or sunset for the best lighting. Thank you very much for taking your camera there, and please go back! Best wishes, DurovaCharge!06:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A Crescent Honeyeater (Phylidonyris pyrrhopterus). Native to eastern Australia and Tasmania.Edit 1 by Fir0002 - NR and slightly ligthenedEdit 2 by Peripitus - slight NR and colour balance change
Reason
Meets the quality guidelines. Was lucky to get so close (taken with a 200mm lens)
Lovely image but the poor bird is jaundiced. Support edit 2 where I've moved the blue channel to get the breast a more realistic colour - Peripitus(Talk)10:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh gosh, I missed that. I am greatly amused though that the master of WB Fir002 also missed it Oh well, only human. Capital photographer
Except the dry leaf behind now looks distinctly red. I think part of the color is the reflections from the surrounding foliage. The bird has a very slight red tinge as well. Maybe back it off very slightly? Noodle snacks (talk) 13:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yikes, the CRT I was using did not show up the now seriously warped colour balance in edit2. Now on my cinema display and using the PS eye dropper to confirm, I see a lot of areas that have being turned pink and orange. Bird looks fairly ok, but given the errors in surrounding area, I'll revert to supporting edit1. Capital photographer (talk) 17:46, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Before you made this comment, I was about to mention that. The bird was, by the looks of it, taken near sunset so it is simply lit with warm light and doesn't need too much correction. To overcompensate for that would ruin the ambience IMO. Besides, I'm not sure whether these thoughts are backed up with science, but I think that the light at sunset is somewhat more monochromatic (due to blue light scattering) and, like some incandescent and fluorescent light, cannot be completely WB-corrected. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)20:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PS, does that mean that despite trying to have a dig at Fir0002, you actually ended up just making yourself look silly again? ;-) Also, I quote you from a previous nom of his: "Stuff eye dropper values"! Do you suddenly see the use for them in objectively critiquing an image? Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)22:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hehe yes I second Diliff's sentiments - about the near sunset colouration of course :) And FWIW you probably noticed on your cinema display Capital photographer, that I did recognise the colour cast and gave it a mild tweak in the blues (+6 in Photoshop) in my edit. I didn't think it need much due to sunset colouration. That said Edit 2 is probably a better WB, although it seems to have made the bird a bit green - which in some ways is worse than a yellow cast because at least the yellow cast can be attributed to sunset. But both edits are pretty good IMO --Fir000201:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Some day I must learn to colour correct properly - I've adjusted it again for localised colour balance but my skills are lacking - Peripitus(Talk)21:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with any edit passing - Wish I had the patience to get such a good small bird picture. I just feel that the original has the bird too yellow. It's back should be brown and breast whiter than the original - Peripitus(Talk)00:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - World War I poster for French war bonds, emphasizing the United States entry into the war as an ally of France. Translation: For worldwide liberty, purchase a subscription to the National Credit Bank's national issue.
Reason
A French war bond poster from December 1917. Much of the war's fighting took place on French soil and the Americans entered late in the war as an ally of France. This poster references historic ties between France and the United States. Translation provided on image upload page.
Comment. I don't really like the imbalance of a border on the sides and top, but not on the bottom. Would it be acceptable to crop out the three remaining borders? NauticaShades18:58, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As you can see from the linked original, the artist created this poster with the border on only three sides. This restoration is in keeping with the original artistic intention. DurovaCharge!19:04, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose nice restoration but are there no posters from France with better design? - the lack of bottom border and unreadability of the text is annoying. Mfield (talk) 04:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose Its a nice image, but I have problems with the text, as I wonder if the average user will be able to find the translation. I guess its mostly an annoyance, per above. smooth0707 (talk) 13:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've added the translation to the caption. As far as the text I could give it another pass; before starting the nomination I had spent five hours reconstructing the lettering. Would it make a difference in your opinion if the letters were darkened more? DurovaCharge!16:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just concerning the text, I think the darkened water makes it already too difficult to read the text. Something should be done to make the text more discernible. The text is currently a dark blue, and I question if that is the original color. I would think a dark black or light black would be appropriate. smooth0707 (talk) 18:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A mosaic of nine processed images acquired during Cassini's first very close flyby of Saturn's moon Titan on Oct. 26, 2004. The images comprising this mosaic were acquired from distances ranging from 650,000 kilometers (400,000 miles) to 300,000 kilometers (200,000 miles).
Reason
It has superior resolution (2,575 × 2,575 pixels) and very useful to illustrate different areas of the moon Titan.
Makes sense. I added it to the Cassini-Huygens section; it seems better than the image at the top of the page, but I'll defer to the people working on that article. Fletcher (talk) 22:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I agree on the emotional aspect. I didn't even know about that village, and now want to go. Wonder what the car model is. It looks familiar, but I can't tell. if someone knows... Blieusong (talk) 22:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Question Moving scene; would it be possible to shoot under better lighting conditions without (obviously rebuilt) power lines in the scene? DurovaCharge!05:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree the power lines are a bit of a distraction, however, I think I actually like that the lighting isn't that sunny. It contributes to the lonely feeling of the image. I know that just sounds like a dumb excuse, but I actually think the gloomy lighting is kind of appropriate. Kaldari (talk) 05:30, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that the power lines are obviously rebuilt... they're not rebuilt in a modern style anyway. I wonder what the chances of them just surviving the last 60 years intact is. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)09:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An existing FPAnother existing FP
It's unlikely that something as flimsy as power lines would have survived such extensive damage. Basically I'm looking for something that can stand on the same footing as our existing FPs of World War II damage. DurovaCharge!16:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, compared to those images, I don't think it has quite the same impact. Feel free to oppose if you think it isn't up to snuff. Kaldari (talk) 17:09, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why you changed the caption. I didn't think the captions here were required to match the captions used in the articles. Regarding the other images of the ruins, I think this one is much better than the others, but I suppose that is a subjective opinion. Kaldari (talk) 20:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A photo of Alfred NobelDerasterised version by -jha-
Reason
Alfred Nobel, Swedish inventor and founder of the Nobel Prize, photographed here in a suit in seat. As one of histories more important men, I thought his image would make an apropriet FP.
Oppose Halftoning. Might support a better version; well composed and encyclopedic. but I'm pretty sure an un-halftoned version should be available. DurovaCharge!04:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment if you go back to the old WP description page from before the file was moved to commons you can find a link to a 'derasterised version'. Its pretty smeary as you'd expect. Someone really needs to find the real original though, which seems never to have been linked to the WP upload. Mfield (talk) 18:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A high quality historic image that serves an encyclopedic function at several articles. Mary Pickford was one of the leading film stars of the silent era and cofounded the United Artists studio. This is also an example of a lobby card that illustrates both the famous children's book Little Lord Fauntleroy and the Fauntleroy suit. Restored version of Image:MaryPickford.jpg.
Comment Are you sure that the illustration is by Frances Hodgson Burnett? Burnett was the author of the book Little Lord Fauntleroy, and didn't even do the illustrations for that (Reginald Birch did). It seems unlikely that the author of the book (who would have been over 70 by this time) would also have illustrated advertisements for one of its film adaptations. TSP (talk) 12:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Right you are: this should be a lesson to me not to take bibliographic notes before morning coffee. Double checked and adjusted. :) DurovaCharge!15:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support It is a good card of a lot of things, very attractive in itself, nice quality scan, compelling image for people to click on. Does anyone ever go further afield than Canada to try to give the Wikipedia main page at least a pretense of being international when it comes to poster/cards? --Blechnic (talk) 21:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Last month I did an Australian poster with Steve Crossin. I'm working on France. Stay tuned. :) (and fwiw generous copyright laws kinda help Yanks like me...) DurovaCharge!22:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Support Edit 1 My first impression was that it seemed a little bit lacking in contrast. Looking at the histogram you have a little bit of room to play. Attached is an edited thumbnail with +15 contrast and +5 saturation. I didn't bother with the full size version as you may have the original RAW to work with. I have now uploaded the full res version of edit one.
Support original and edit 2 I like the original, though I could see the folliage being a bit richer in colour. The edit to me has less contrast and saturation IMO. Doesn't look better than the original. Capital photographer (talk) 12:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment IMO, edit 1 has the best color/contrast. Fir's edit 2 looks a bit pale on my monitor (yes, it's calibrated... ;-) Make a full-size version of edit 1, and you may consider it supported. --Janke | Talk08:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose DOF is troublesome. I'd like to see the rest of the plant in focus. It only adds to the article about as much as all the others in the gallery. I don't mind the lighting, but it doesn't stand out as being particularly good.Greener Cactus (talk) 20:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Photo of a small, volcanic, island that is inside the Nicaraguan lake Cocibolca. The lake has over 365 volcanic islands. Digital Manipulation has been minimal such as adding a vignette, gamma correction and exposure.
Reason
Has Nice Colours. It is simple and representative. Has a free license (Creative Commons) and adds value to an article.
Oppose. Noise isn't really the major issue. The vignetting is not encyclopaedic and I don't think its really possible to learn much from the image. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)08:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A 99-year-old panorama of a Native American ceremonial gathering. Loads of clues here about the social history of the Cheyenne people. Note the mixture of traditional and modern apparel, the construction and layout of the tents, and the clusters of people--generally males and females in separate groupings. Although we miss out on the dance itself, the exposure time required for the shot probably prevents any meaningful depiction of the dance anyway (walking figures are blurred). Very wide and, I hope, tall enough to merit consideration. Restored version of Image:Cheyenne dance.jpg.
Comment I'm missing the encyclopaedic value. The caption doesn't go beyond naming what the event is, in either article, or here. Why are some sitting on the ground, others on horseback? What is the significance of the large tent structure in the center? I can't even tell whether these elements are characteristic or notable for the event. Maybe they could have been sitting in any other arrangement in the open prairie, and it would have been the same. Old pictures restored are nice, but they still need EV. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 07:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support, GerardM (talk) 10:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC) This is the type of ethnological event that is sorely needed to have illustrations of in an encyclopaedia. Giving an impression what it actually looked like without any Hollywood additions... GREAT !![reply]
Support I think the image does have considerable encyclopedic value with respect to the Cheyenne, not so much with respect to sun dancing. It appears the sun-pole/Tree of Life is visible in front of the tent, but no one is yet being pierced that I can see. Agree with Papa Lima Whiskey, notwithstanding the caption, the image could be mistaken for any kind of meeting. Suggest maybe a retitle, as we do not want to mislead the readers into thinking they will learn about sun dances, when in fact the image doesn't seem to explain much at all about sun dances. Alternatively, describe the role of the pole in the caption. It's pretty lurid and will intrigue readers. Besides that, the image does give a very good glimpse of the Cheyenne as they actually lived. I know I've seen portrait photographs of native Americans, but not many good ones showing ordinary life. Based on Cheyenne and Native Americans in the United States, this is likely one of the best we have, as there just aren't many non-portrait photos. Due to the technical limitations of the time, I think we can forgive some of the flaws, such as one motion-blur woman left of center, and, right of center, one motion-blur man with his head cut off, which gives him the unfortunate appearance of performing what might be termed an old fashioned colonoscopy on the horse behind him. Still, it's funny and I think forgivable. Fletcher (talk) 00:49, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Heat and light from the Sun fuel life on EarthAlternate - Removed the robot arm.
Reason
This is a striking high resolution image. I'd like to see what others think of it. I understand that digital manipulation is discouraged but the subject here is the Sun so the robot arm has been removed. The robot arm can be cropped out of the picture to minimize the manipulation but this would alter the frame of the subject. Perhaps others have input on this.
Oppose Original Holy noise - what did they shoot it with, a cheap point and shoot? Oppose Alternate PS job has left repetitive patterns in the noise. Mfield (talk) 06:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Those silly astronauts and their cameras. I figure this was the camera used: [8]. The "noise" you point out is common of Sun pictures and rather appealing to me. You've got me on the patterns though... That's the best I could do with MS Paint. Have a whack at it if you like.
Oppose composition: the sunburst is a pretty decorative effect, but it's just overpowering the image. A better lit depiction of the Earth and robot arm, with less noise and glare, would be much preferred. That's what's interesting about the image. Tell them Wikipedia wants a reshoot. :-) Fletcher (talk) 01:49, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support -- Several legs aren't in good focus, but otherwise a beautiful image. She almost looks cute. From a distance. Fletcher (talk) 03:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support to oppose those who oppose per those who oppose </sarcasm Seriously though, this is a weak oppose (as if the modifier actually matters) since it does have it's flaw however it is still overall a good image and very encyclopedic which is the main benchmark for an enwiki nom, if this were commons then it would be the other way around with it all being a beauty contest but since this is enwiki my vote reflects as such. Cat-five - talk04:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The French Revolution, 1793: a crowd celebrates the acquittal of Jean-Paul Marat.Alternate - Redid the levels, color balance, and contrast.
Reason
215-year-old political cartoon of an event from the French Revolution: celebration of Jean-Paul Marat's acquittal for his role in the execution of Louis XVI of France. Text translation provided on image page.
unknown; restored verion of Image:Triomphe de Marat.jpg (note: border lines are slightly off true vertical and horizontal because they were not drawn at perfect right angles).
Support - Quality scan; encyclopedic; funny. Has a wow factor, as in "Wow, those people must have really enjoyed chewing tobacco." Agree the black lines could be darker but it's not a deal-breaker to me. Addendum: support alternate, which looks improved. Fletcher (talk) 04:10, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A Cape Barren Goose (Cereopsis novaehollandiae) in Tasmania, Australia. This bird feeds by grazing and rarely swims. The short, decurved black bill and green cere gives it a very peculiar expression.Edit 1 - Improved contrast in shadows to reduce 'flatness' by Mfield
Reason
Believe it meets the quality requirements and clearly illustrates the subject.
Oppose A good capture, but I also think the lighting is dull. Elaboration: compare it against Image:Long-billed Corella.jpg, another Noodle Snacks bird profile. The colors in that image are much more vivid, the setting on the log elegant in contrast to the drab ground in the subject image. And correspondingly the Corella, while not yet promoted, has attracted universal support as I write this, again in contrast to the subject image. Fletcher (talk) 02:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll probably go to Maria Island and try again later in the year, but its fair to point out that it is a grey bird and the colors aren't particularly vivid to begin with. More contrast in the lighting and a better background are probably in order (but bear in mind that they don't tend to feed around interesting backgrounds). Noodle snacks (talk) 02:58, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support a large, decent quality image that adds value to the article. Would probably have garnered more support if the subject was brightly coloured. Guest9999 (talk) 13:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I am sure the flatness complained about could be mitigated to a fair degree by an edit from the actual original per my Edit 1. I am reluctant to spend any more time improving Edit 1 itself as there are jpeg artifacts from the original save that will be brought out too much. A complete re-edit from the actual original would be needed. Mfield (talk) 17:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Aerial bombing of railroad yards at Siena during Operation Strangle in World War II. On the alternate line from Pisa and Florence south to Rome, the Siena yards were blasted by Mediterranean Allied Air Force Bombers.Alternate - Recropped per feedback.Alternate 2 - Once more, with feeling.
Reason
A clear aerial photograph from one of the major air bombing campaigns of World War II. Operation Strangle had far reaching importance for subsequent United States military doctrine because it succeeded for reasons other than its primary mission: it had been intended to cut supply lines and force a German retreat. Although the mission failed at that aim, its interference with tactical troop movement dealt a crippling blow to German defense. Large high resolution file. Restored version of Image:Italybombing.jpg.
Support alt 2. What they said. Clegs (talk) 22:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC) i think alt 2 is the best, splits the difference of the concers raised by Fletcher. Clegs (talk) 15:17, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose Support for Alt 2 It's a high quality scan that conveys encyclopedic value, but I want to play devil's advocate: (1) while I know it's not always needed to center on the subject of the image, there seems to be a ton of farmland on the left that is not really germane to the subject matter (crop the crops?); (2) the bottom left also appears more lightly exposed than the rest of the image; (3) while dramatic, the plumes obscure the damage done. Update: I like the new crop in Alt. 2, and per Spencer's comment, if the image is intended to show bombing, not damage, then I can't blame it for not showing damage. I wish it showed more, but it still seems like a rare find. Fletcher (talk) 05:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that while Fletcher has a point regarding the farmland, a certain amount enhances the composition by providing "quiet" to contrast and highlight the activity of the bombing. That's why the original was such an arresting image. I think Alt 1 is too tight a crop. Mostlyharmless (talk) 22:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking I'd crop inside the long vertical autobahn on the left. Like I said I don't mind if the rail-yard is off-center, for the same reason you mention, but it just seemed like there was a a lot of cropland. Fletcher (talk) 23:10, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This photo is encyclopedic, but it's not clear what it shows due to the smoke and the high altitude from which it was taken. There are many better quality bomb damage assessment photos than this one. Nick Dowling (talk) 01:50, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've got no idea. I don't think that the photo meets featured picture criteria 1 or 3. The photo is clearly useful, but it's not a great image IMO. Nick Dowling (talk) 10:02, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia has at least three FP for crepuscular rays and at least one FP for Mammoth Hot Springs.So why am I nominating this image?I'm nominating this image because it is very unique, one of kind image which combines geology and meteorology.This image emphasizes that Mammoth Hot Springs are really hot by showing the crepuscular rays over the steam.
Oppose - The image has heaps of noise in the sky on the upper left, it looks like you took to much effot to focus on the rays - however, Dead trees at Mammoth Hot Springs is good, and if you where to exchange this one for that, i would turn this into a "support". The thumb nail looks good however! --Amckern (talk) 04:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did you want to say "the images"? Do you oppose both of them? The alternative is not the edit of the original. It is a different image. The subject of the images is the rays. The images were taken against th sun.I guess my monitor is not good enough to see the noise, but the images have lots of room for downsampling. The terraces and mountains are still seen very good and create a nice steamy atmosphere for the rays. The images are unique. I doubt very much that an image like this could be found on Flickr and/or at the NET and I believe that Wikipedia FP would benefit from displaying such an image at the main page, but whateever...--Mbz1 (talk) 04:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)04:40, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think the caption text may be copyright violation. I'm not sure what the National Park Service's policies are, but straight copying from their website probably isn't the best way to do it. Thegreenj15:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, but in general it's still best to reword, or at the least, link to a source if you word-for-word copy public domain material. Thegreenj15:26, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're right. I will. First I need to learn from somebody, if it is OK to use that text at all. If it is, I'll link to the source. If it is not I'll change the caption.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not a valid reason to oppose IMO, Papa Lima Whiskey. The nominated image is the only image not only at Wikipedia, but at the NET which illustrates crepuscular rays over steam. Besides, may I please ask, if you read the caption and the reason? The image illustrates much more than just crepuscular rays.--Mbz1 (talk) 11:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Completely valid. You chose to put it on the article rather than just put it in the appropriate commons cat, even though the article has hardly anything but images. It's basically the same as sticking it in a gallery at the end of an article, which always raises eyebrows. I might take a different view if you nominated the version without rays. Obviously, it wouldn't be included in crepuscular rays. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 10:37, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - composition is stilted and uninteresting. The cut off trees are really distracting and the rays aren't that great that an awkward composition can be overlooked. The sky is really noisy too. No wow factor here. I MUCH prefer the version without the rays you link to in the nom - as an illustration for hot springs. Would in fact support that as a FPC for hot springs - it succeeds everywhere this fails. pschemp | talk13:01, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would love to support the version where the trees are not cut off. Yes, the rays are pretty but that one has much more value as a photo. --Arad (talk) 21:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An 1811 portrait of the first professional female balloonist, Sophie Blanchard, based upon a flight she made on 15 August 1811 in Milan to celebrate Napoleon Bonaparte's forty-second birthday. Mme. Blanchard was "Aeronaut of the Official Festivals" under Napoleon and became "Official Aeronaut of the Restoration" for Louis XVIII of France until her death in a ballooning accident in 1819. Restored version of Image:Blanchardballoon.jpg.
Conditional support. A good digital reproduction of a modestly flawed original reproduction. However, it needs more descriptive information: what is the medium? How big is it? What does the writing at the bottom right say (is that the name of the engraver, or did Thiele do both the composition and the engraving)? If a little more context can't be found, then I don't think it should be featured.--ragesoss (talk) 17:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty near A3 size, woodblock engraving, and it can be difficult to exactly identify who did what in a Victorian newspaper, but Thiele is the only one credited. The text reads "Studies of Operas: Lohengrin"
It says something else (another name?) within the print, on the lower right. Something like Killer 181. Also, there are some symbols (an engraver's monograph?) at the bottom center-right, just down and to left of the other writing. Was is just woodblock, or woodblock to electrotype?--ragesoss (talk) 23:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, yes. It's probably Keller, but anyone who knows about Victorian woodblocks can you that it's very, very difficult to identify Victorian engravers a lot of the time. I can tell you that it's almost surely just woodblock, though - this was a daily newspaper, and the scan is taken from the original. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Ox-eye Daisy (Leucanthemum vulgare)Edit 1 - Adjust levels on petals by Mfield
Reason
We already have a FP of a related flower, Image:Leucanthemum paludosum May 2008.jpg, but heck, I really like this picture! PRETTY! Super high-res too. So kill me. ;)
Weak Oppose While I agree the flower-head is well-photographed, I really would like to see some of its stem - as it is, it looks like the flower is just kind of floating there, like a UFO. Too much "bokeh". Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's quite possible that the stem is actually directly under the flower and thus would not be visible, as that's how daisies typically grow (with the flower facing directly up). Kaldari (talk) 23:59, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose Original - its a little underexposed - the petals should be white but some of them definitely look grey. Ideally it should be reshot with less harsh lighting to reduce contrast on the petals. Mfield (talk) 21:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are either of them calibrated? The original looked too dark on both my calibrated Mac and PC. There's going to be a difference between the two platforms if they haven't been adjusted as the Mac and PC standard gammas are different. All that said I adjusted it with reference to the histogram. Mfield (talk) 00:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The "bokeh" is simply the depth of field choice of showing only the flower, and the harsh lighting is natural. I think the flower is beautiful and the photograph is well-executed. Superm401 - Talk21:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support edit 1 Looks good now. FWIW, there is no such thing as "too much bokeh" (it's a quality of a lens), but I agree with Shoemaker's Holiday that ideally some connection from the subject should be made so that it isn't "floating". Thegreenj22:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Aye, you know what I mean: If we could see the stem, or if the ground was in slightly better focus so it was clear that it was taken from straight overhead, it would make the image better, I think. It's by no means a bad image - the detail of the flower is excellent. I just find those details too distracting to count it as the best image work :/ Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose technical details aside (like the harsh daylight), this is a really boring photo of an incredibly common flower. —Pengo00:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll accept that you feel it looks boring, but it's clearly encyclopaedic. Even (or especially?) common flowers are notable. Keep in mind that English[9] is spoken in many parts of the world, and not all of them have daisies. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 10:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's found in Europe, Asia, North America, Australia and New Zealand. Even the Latin name means "Common". For such a common subject, you'd have to expect a particularly compelling, aesthetically pleasing, shocking, impressive, or just highly informative image. (criteria 3). —Pengo12:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose, the surrounding area of the accident is distracting, especially the repeated zebra crossings, the "accident" is not centred and as an illustration of an accident it just comes across as two bumpers smacking together. –– Lid(Talk)11:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment interestingly this image is an FP on both commons and the Turkish wikipedia. I'm just not seeing it. –– Lid(Talk)11:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OpposePrivacy concerns, very distracting pattern on the road, and it doesn't look like they've been in an accident, it looks more like they parked a little too close. Clegs (talk) 15:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I had to blow it up to full rez to be able to tell there was any damage at all. Usually with an accident, even a minor fender-bender (I've been in several), there is debris on the road. This shows none. I stand by my comment. Clegs (talk) 15:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That was an issue brought up in the nomination @ Commons. Do not need permission, as they are in a public place and there is no expectation of privacy. I really do not mean to rehash an old issue, but seethis. smooth0707(talk) 17:43, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Australian law may be different to where this was taken, but it entitles a photographer to photograph people at a public event or a crowd in public. It does not allow someone to photograph a couple of strangers just because they're on a street. Capital photographer (talk) 04:16, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I keep coming back to this for its weird aesthetic, but I don't think it's FP quality. It's interesting, yes, but not beautiful, nor shocking, nor particularly informative. I don't agree with the privacy objection: although one person is identifiable and license plates are visible, there is presumptively no expectation of privacy on a public street. I don't know the nuances of Japanese law, however. Fletcher (talk) 17:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So? He's just as entitled to vote as we are. There's no rule saying noobs don't get sufferage. Unless you want to accuse him of being a sockpuppet, your comment is pointless as far as this discussion goes. Clegs (talk) 15:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As I've commented before, and undoubtedly will again, that original statement is common practice and is not accusing anyone of anything, nor saying the "vote" doesn't count. It's simply notifying contributors of a new user, with the usual cautions that entails. --jjron (talk) 16:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a situation where we need to rely on the credibility, judgment, or experience of G.C. An opinion on a photograph stands or falls on its own merits, so commenting on his edit count reads like an ad hominem. Note also the slow edit war in the edit history (of this candidate page, not WP:FPC) between the two of them concerning Papa Lima's link that he added in his first comment. So I see it as a shot, not an exercise of "the usual cautions," which I don't really understand in the first place. Fletcher (talk) 17:36, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Vote-stuffing by sockpuppets is not only a very real concern but has actually happened at WP:FPC in a few instances. Letting the closer know of very new users is quite common and I agree with the practice. -Fcb981(talk:contribs) 22:11, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Striking and a good illustration of an accident. Compare with the other illustrations in the article, some quite gruesome. This is a typical, not too serious accident where both drivers are apparently unharmed. Quite possibly that junction is just too complicated and contributed to the accident - a theme of the article. Nice picture. ProfDEH (talk) 20:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A well shot example of a common minor car accident. The colors of the image come together well - the clothing of the waiting people contrasts with their respective vehicles. I think the stripes actually add to the crash point of the image, giving the impression of "impact". Sure, it may be a pretty banal subject but, for what it is, this is ideal - especially next to a serious car accident. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:29, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It's extremely difficult to get any kind of aesthetic in a picture of a car crash, due to the transient nature of the event. Then to get one with such striking visual features, - well it's not going to happen again any time soon. I think this is terribly encyclopedic, because goodness knows, this is what most car accidents are like. They aren't huge bloody messes. I had no trouble seeing the damage on the car the first go 'round or knowing what was going on. There is plenty of detail and the flat lighting is perfect for the slightly somber mood of the scene. (Plus no blown out highlights that way folks - your favorite complaint!) It's a cool picture. pschemp | talk20:55, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This photo strikes me as extremely boring. The accident depicted appears to be rather insignificant, and the photo barely shows the damage done to the cars. I mean, it would have been just as effective to lineup two cars so that they're making contact and take an overhead shot of it. -- mcshadyplTC23:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It's a very plain picture, nice quality but I don't see where it adds much to the article. Especially compared to other featured pictures. Becky Sayles (talk) 00:10, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The Musk Lorikeet (Glossopsitta concinna) inhabits south-central/eastern Australia. It is distinguished by red forehead, blue crown and a distinctive yellow band on its wing. Both upper and lower mandibles of the beak are red tipped and darker near its base.The musk lorikeet breeds mainly from August to January. Their nest are usually built in a hollow limb of a tree.
Oppose harsh artificial lighting, while artificial lighting would have been necessary to take this shot, a lower flash intensity and use of diffuser would be needed to produce softer light Capital photographer (talk) 08:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The first, shot at 1/200, is much crisper than the second shot at 1/80. I don't mind the flash as much as other people seem to, but it is true it changes the colors, and might not be ideal for an encyclopedia article. Since you have a color reference file, you could tone down and adjust the colors to match the reference image. I did something quick in 'Image:Musk Lorikeet edit.jpg' (sorry, not sure how to link added). I will delete it in a few days, since these changes should be done on the original full resolution, pre-sharpened, raw file. Tomfriedel (talk) 01:32, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. In addition to the lighting, the first shot (and edit) have some pretty noticable jpeg artifacts, especially around the edges of the bird. The alternate is close, but the combination of composition and detail just don't quite add up to Featured-level quality.--ragesoss (talk) 17:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Red Stringybark is a small to medium-sized tree. Adult leaves are stalked, lanceolate, to 15 x 2.5 cm, concolorous, and slightly glossy green.
Reason
Good quality image that shows all the detail of the leaf and would be usefull for identification purposes.
Comment if I remember correctly, there are roughly 250,000 species of leafy plant. Are we going to feature the leaf of each one? Remember that it will take POTD roughly 800 years to get through them. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 18:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If we get a featurable picture of the leaf of every plant species, we'll be doing very well. If each of those photos illustrated a specific article on the species, I see no reason not to feature them. Mostlyharmless (talk) 01:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose You shot the underside of the leaf but offer it for detail for "identification purposes," but the plant descriptions on line for this species discuss the color and sheen of the adaxial of the leaf for id. California oaks, for example, have species that require examination of the underside of the leaf for identification purposes. There are 6 billion humans, so no more people FP, living or extinct.... Also, if you shoot this again, get a longer adult leaf with the curve rather than an in-betweener. --Blechnic (talk) 22:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Other than the fact, that is, that it doesn't show "all the detail of the leaf" and that it would not "be useful for identification purposes," and that it's caption is wrong, as it does not show a "slightly glossy green leaf" because that is a description of its upper surface, not its lower surface. So, EV, maybe, but not the EV raised in this FPC. Also, this leaf is supposed to have a dented petiole or something that might also be used for identification surfaces and may be visible when shot from the upper surface. EV must actually be seen, not what would be seen if different view of the specimen had been captured instead. --Blechnic (talk) 08:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We should probably have a standard that says both sides of the leaf have to be shown (but obviously, feel free to use to different leaves). I still think the FP category should be restricted to subjects that hold some promise of "wow". And isolated leaves on flat surfaces are probably not it. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 10:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per criterion 3—how is this picture special among high quality leaf pictures, which can't be that hard to make? Thegreenj01:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose so devoid of context as to be unencyclopedic. There isn't even a shadow here to tell us the 3 dimensions exist. pschemp | talk13:10, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Not enough encyclopedic value. Such an image should minimally show several leaves on a branch of a tree. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-07-14 13:53Z
Panorama from the Ziegler Polar Expedition, an expedition that attempted to reach the North Pole during 1903-1905. Encyclopedic panorama, unusual subject, large enough for FPC and high quality considering the period and the photographic conditions. Restored version of Image:82northa.jpg.
Support, though I'd like to see a version without the signature. It's on some pretty featureless snow, so cloning it out shouldn't cause any great loss to the integrity of the image. derangedbulbasaur02:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree however I'm reluctant to put a version up without a signature considering that browbeating that anyone who dares do an edit other than slight tint adjustments gets from the users here. Cat-five - talk04:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If someone wants to edit it out I don't particularly object. Since it's an original photographer's signature I decided to leave it in. DurovaCharge!04:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support As rage said it is an excellent find, it is a nice panorama and a nice scan (considering the age of the original panorama) and very encyclopedic. Cat-five - talk04:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support only version with photographer's signature left in, Strong oppose editing it out An excellent image for the photographer's article, also. Great value for encyclopedia about these last days of exploration and the photographers who chronicled the days. Next we'll be cloning out signatures dirtying up the works of the great European painters. --Blechnic (talk) 23:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I'm not fussed on the signature because its an important, historic image and thats primarily why we'd be featuring it. As such, the photographer is somewhat relevant. If it were a contemporary photo in which the photographer was incidental to the scene, I'd support removing it. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)11:16, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Good lighting, nice urban image, attractive thumb and blown up. You managed clean and bright without fake. Good job. --Blechnic (talk) 23:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I disagree with the nominator's reasoning; just because it's featured on other projects doesn't mean we have to feature it here. It should reach consensus here on its own merits. Fortunately, as of my post, it has reached consensus on its own merits, because it's a fine image. Can anyone identify the building under construction in the background, near the World Financial Center? Is that part of the new World Trade Center complex? If so, that would likely add to the encyclopedic value of the image, and could be mentioned in the caption. I believe the building under construction in the background is a new Goldman Sachs tower just northwest of the WTC site. Still support the image. Fletcher (talk) 16:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Cross-section of an 1806 submarine design by Robert Fulton.Unrestored version - Provided for comparison.
Reason
This was a special find: the Library of Congress owns a set of original engineering designs by Robert Fulton, who invented the steamship and was a major innovator of the submarine. So this 1806 schematic doesn't come from a publisher's reprint--it's from Fulton's actual work in pencil, ink, and watercolor--and they made it available in a high resolution scan. Possibly because the file comes from an unusually good source and the original was well preserved, I had the unexpected pleasure of achieving a restoration of higher quality than would normally be possible. Not quite the original Nautilus, but darn close (most of Fulton's designs aren't available online in files that have comparable potential). Restored version of Image:Fultondesign.jpg.
Support Awesome restoration. @ Fletcher That's what the next stage (creating an SVG version) is for. @ 59.92.36.202 I think the white space is just enough to keep it balanced, personally. Bastiquedemandez06:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a start: "A = anchor". :-) Anyone know what L might be? Is that a mine that drops down, or some sort of ballast? Fletcher (talk) 20:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the spirit of curiosity, C is the anchor line. D-G are a pump to empty the forward water chamber and raise the submarine, and R is the water outlet. I moves the sail. J is a hand crank to move the propeller and P is a lever to change the propeller's angle. I'm not certain what some of the other items are, but H might be an airhole. DurovaCharge!22:56, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Walter Reed General Hospital in September, 1919. The WRGH was the precursor to the current Walter Reed Army Medical Center.
Reason
Amazing historical value, widescreen from 1919. Adds great value to the article it is in. Restored version of original by Mfield, originally nominated version that is discussed is here
Oppose compare it to the original - the restoration was OK up until the point that the sky got overdarked, bringing out a lot of grain and splots. I would probably support a better restoration, in fact I'll probably do it if I get a moment. Also, is this really the highest resolution that is available - 588 seems like a low vertical dimension from what was presumably a fair sized set of prints - that makes the prints less than 2" high at 300dpi which seems unlikely - if the prints were larger they were scanned at too low a resolution. Shame. Mfield (talk) 16:57, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The earliest version of the image here looks much better, although it has the split. And that's be great if you could do a better restoration of the image. Mastrchf (t/c) 17:15, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support I reworked the file from the original and uploaded it over the top as there were no votes yet except mine and the nominator who agreed on a new rework. The weak part of the support is per my original comments about the lack of resolution. Mfield (talk) 18:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. Being unfamiliar with the site, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, and assume that it wasn't possible to obtain a photograph that would have had all the buildings in frame. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 17:56, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This image doesn't do it for me. Just being old and panoramic doesn't necessarily make it a FP, and to be honest, it makes me kind of dizzy. smooth0707 (talk) 21:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Entamoeba histolytica is a parasite that infects humans
Reason
it was already nominated and was not promoted becouse of missing quorum, so i was hoping more people would be interested this time hereis the past nomination.
Comment: Though a nice and informative illustration, I have to take issue with the size of the text. I should be able to at least read the headings of the diagram. Seeing it used in the articles, I suppose they could be sized a tad bigger there, but I still think the size of the diagram is too small. SpencerT♦C23:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose The cysts of various gut infecting organisms can be partially identified by the appearance of their nuclei, but this diagram does not show the cyst with karyosomes in the nuclei. If there is a reference for this diagram that can explain why this image is done without the usual karyosomes, let me know, otherwise, no. There are quite a few other problems with this image, and it should be removed from the articles for now, until it can be vetted and corrected by a biologist. --Blechnic (talk) 06:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
first: This diagram deals with the life-cycle of entamoeba histolytica and not with the ultrastructure of the nucleus. For a good, useful diagram it is necessary to concentrate of the essentials and ommit arcane details for didactic reasons. However, after reading your message i made a little investigation regarding karyosomes. So here it is what i found:
Karyosome is a dense area of chromatin in the nucleus, as it can be seen here in a iodamoeba buetschlii. In general it is recognised as a dark area inside the nucleus.
Yet acording to the book "medizinische Mikrobiologie" (Ernst Wiesmann, Thieme 6. Auflage ISBN3 13 444806 8) the Entamoeba histolytica species is not recognised by a prominant karyosome compared to e. g. iodamoeba buetschlii or endolimax nana. A similar much more simplified diagram for reference is here showing the same. It is therefore no need to include karysome appearance in this diagram. By the way today diagnosis of entamoeba species is done using Polymerase chain reaction and hardly with ultrastructural analysis because of the high failure rate relying on visual appearance.
Please keep the conversation on the topic, not on my mood, or any other personal speculation about me. Thank you.
Actually, I think ELISA is the preferred method, although PCR is also used.
That is correct, it is not identified by a prominent karyosome. That is because similar cysts produced by other organisms have nuclei with more prominent karyosomes not because E. histolytica does not have a visible karyosome. The simplified diagram you link to shows the cyst as it is almost always portrayed, with four nuclei each with a visible and somewhat centrally located karyosome. And similar cysts of other organisms with more prominent karyosomes.
PCR was not much used in 1971, the date of publication of the textbook you mention, and I cannot find it under its ISBN to find out if this is a newer version. As the issue of identification of E. histolytica changed completely in the early 1990s using a textbook from 1970ish as a source, particularly when you bring up PCR, is probably not the best reference to be using for this illustration.
The ultrastructure of the nucleus includes far more than the distribution of its chromatin.
Illustrations of the life cycle of E. histolytica commonly include the karyosome in the nucleus. Unless you can establish that they don't, your choice is simply original research, and that, along with personal attacks is a no-no. Also, it's not the "high failure rate relying on visual appearance" that makes PCR, ELISA and other techniques necessary, it cysts are simply not differentiated from the non-disease causing species using electron microscopy. --Blechnic (talk) 08:52, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The Swamp Wallaby (Wallabia bicolor) is the only living representative of the genusWallabia. This individual exhibits the species' unusual preference for browsing; note the use of the forelimbs to grasp the plantCrop by Fletcher
Reason
This is a high quality image of a Swamp Wallaby (Wallabia bicolor). The Swamp Wallaby is rare amongst the many species of macropods (kangaroos, wallabies, etc) in that they almost exclusively graze, however this species browses on leaves, etc. This photo shows this rare characteristic very well, including the way it grasps the plant and leaves in its 'hands'. (I also have a possible 'alternative' image being used in the Wallaby article , but I have a slight preference for the nominated image.)
Meta-discussion largely unrelated to this nomination
Yes there is - refer to the lead image in the article, which is of this same individual. But IMO this has better EV as it shows the rare feeding behaviour better, as I have pointed out in the nom. Besides, the full animal is not required, even if there wasn't a good reason - refer to Wikipedia:Featured pictures/Animals/Mammals for plenty of other examples of 'cut off' mammal FPs. --jjron (talk) 17:05, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's required by me to get my support. And I don't care that other people have been willing to pass cut-off animals in the past. Consensus can change and all that. No criteria-lawyering needed here. Thank you. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 07:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I think when dealing with "cut-off" images of animals (especially in smaller animals), it is important the remainder of the animal make up for the missing part, such as the FP's of this seal, or this cat, and given that you can't really see the wallaby's face that well, I vote no. Nevertheless, I enjoyed your photo. smooth0707 (talk) 00:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is it possible cutting it off more would help the image? I think people are bothered by the way you can see most, but not all, of its form. If you cropped it to box in the head, arms, and the plant, it would bring the focus more to its face and eating behavior. It's only 1600 x 1200, but I think this can be done without dropping under the image size requirements. Just an idea. Fletcher (talk) 16:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your edit (and for actually reading the nomination) - if the cropped version is particularly popular I can re-crop from the original and put it up at a higher res. I tried another crop too, but mine was tighter, and yours seems fairly popular. --jjron (talk) 08:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The back half of the wallaby is not in focus, and though Fletcher's crop takes out most of it, a full animal shot is preferred. SpencerT♦C23:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support crop The oppose votes are perhaps correct that the picture does not do a good job of portraying the anatomical characteristics of the wallaby, but there is more to an animal than its anatomical characteristics. This shot seems to display the feeding behavior very well, and the cropped version emphasizes it even more. The technical qualities seem good enough to me. derangedbulbasaur00:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A good, illustrative image of the diet of this wallaby. However, I do not care for the lighting, which distracts from the subject. (Dimly lit wallaby, very bright background.) Mangostar (talk) 22:27, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Grand Canyon and Yellowstone Fall at Yellowstone National Park.The canyon is up to 900 feet deep (275 m) and a half mile (0.8 km) in width.The canyon below the Lower Yellowstone Falls was at one time the site of a geyser basin that was the result of rhyolitelava flows, extensive faulting, and heat beneath the surface (related to the hot spot). The rhyolite in the canyon contains a variety of different iron compounds. Exposure to the elements caused the rocks to change colors. The rocks are, in effect, oxidizing; the canyon is rusting. The colors indicate the presence or absence of water in the individual iron compounds. Most of the yellows in the canyon are the result of iron present in the rock rather than sulfur.Edit 1
Reason
Hihg resolution and educational image, which shows how Yellowstone NP got its name
Comment - what is up with the colours ? At first glance the picture appears over saturated and has far too much Yellow. The water and snow(?) have obvious yellow tints. Compared to this the colours look unnatural. I like the resolution, angle, sharpness and even the rocks in the foreground - Peripitus(Talk)23:52, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the comment. I tried to correct the water. What do you think? The image you reffer to is way to dull. Compare to this and to national geographic image please.The colors of the rocks deppend on time of the day and time of the year the image was taken. Maybe part of the water color problem was that there still was more than enough melting snow to affect the colors of the waters, but the rocks are really yellow in the real life, when they are lit by the sun.--Mbz1 (talk) 00:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose, but want to support if we can settle on a good edit. I agree the colors look over-saturated, which seems improved in the edit, except the edit seems to have introduced artifacts in the sky -- the hazard of saving and resaving JPEGs, I guess (see for instance the blue gap in the clouds top center, which looks much nicer in the orig). Fletcher (talk) 01:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
comment I do not see artifact at the sky, but please let me know, if somebody has a wish and a time to edit the original image. THanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 03:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have a created a number of Portland transit maps/diagrams that are in Category:Transportation in Portland, Oregon. I believe this is the most encyclopedic one since it is up-to-date and is about rail lines which do not change frequently. Moreover, unlike the official map, it is geographically correct. In addition, as the image page notes, it uses official transit agency data for the route paths, stop locations and stop names.
As for the FP criteria I believe that:
Regarding #1, it's in SVG and the code is clean and very small
Regarding #2, it is set for moderate resolution, but since its SVG, it can be enlarged with no problems and the wiki software is capable of rendering it in (m)any resolutions.
Regarding #3, as noted above, it may be the best map out there since it has a trait that even the official map lacks
4's OK
Regarding #5, it accurately shows the extent of the rail lines and locations of all of the stops
Regarding #6, it is based on official data
Regarding #7, the descriptions contain the formulas used to convert the data and make the map (it could be used as a reference to making maps from lat/long data)
Lastly, I would upload this at Wikimedia Commons, however I do not have an account there. If someone else wants to move it and the other diagrams there, I would be OK with that as long as they can still be visible in Category:Transportation in Portland, Oregon.
Comment This is an exceptional image -- one of many that you've made. I have a couple thoughts, I don't think they should stand in the way of an FP designation, but I'll point them out to see what you think:
I prefer to use the {{legend}} template in an article where possible, rather than having the legend built into the image. This guarantees that the colors and other important info will be at a legible size.
I'm not sure how easy this is to implement, but I'd rather see a blue, red, and/or green line running parallel to each other, than the dotted lines you currently have. It would be easier to see where each line ends.
The yellow vs. white dots for "park 'n' ride" versus normal stops is not easy to discern. Can you change to a color that's easier to distinguish than yellow?
Anyway, none of this is meant to detract from an exceptionally good image. Thanks for uploading this, and it's got my !vote for FP in any event...I just think there might be a small amount of room for improvement, if you want to take a look at these issues. -Pete (talk) 08:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments. Re: #2, I am almost done with a version doing that (moving the Blue Line path up a bit and the Red Line down, along with widening the path by 1/3); it will also feature a different P&R color. Jason McHuff (talk) 07:22, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If that's true, even with ignoring the fact that it's not in SVG since it's older... Darn. I guess it means I'm too late. However, I'd agree that its nice to see standards rising--it means Wikipedia is getting better. Jason McHuff (talk) 19:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And that image even has a watermark on it... the reason your image isn't going to make FP is because you can do the same thing for almost every city with a metro/tramway. But, hopefully that won't discourage you because this kind of contribution is _really_ important to Wikipedia and often more important than some of the FPs. There's, unfortunately, not enough recognition for grunt work but it has to be done :) --grenグレン09:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Re the watermark: You mean the text in the lower right corner? I didn't even see that, though it could easily be removed. Also, I'd like to note that while you could have maps like this for every system in the world (which would cause this one to be lost in the crowd), it can be very hard to get internal, official data from some transit agencies. See this for example. Jason McHuff (talk) 23:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, another question: Does the way it was produced not count? I mean, if it was simply traced from aerial photos or something and the names quickly added, I would've probably not even considered nominating it. But as I've noted, this was mathematically converted from official data. Jason McHuff (talk) 19:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Voters are becoming [...] these days. This is not supposed to have WOW factor. Guidelines are not rules, and MUST not be followed as such. This is a map which is encyclopedic and very well made. It's not a beautiful Fir0002 Insect macro shot. Look at it as a map and I'm sure you haven't seen much better. If this gets nominated, it encourages more and more of these to be made for every city and that's what wikipedia is all about. --Arad (talk) 21:43, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It is encyclopedic and a rather good map. With a confusing lack of context with the city of Portland and a mediocre technical standard, however, it doesn't seem appropriate to mark it as a featured picture. Palladmial (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand this vote. What is this "confusing lack of context"? Is it something that could be easily addressed in the text that accompanies the image? Also, what is the "mediocre technical standard"? I have not participated in many FP discussions, so is there some jargon here I'm not familiar with? Both points have me scratching my head. -Pete (talk) 19:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm assuming that lack of context is referring to the fact that the map doesn't show anything other than the light rail track (no street grid, rivers, landmarks, etc). The comment about the technical standard is hard for me to agree with. It might not be as pretty as other featured maps, but technically it is excellent. Cacophony (talk) 07:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A macro picture of a harvestman (a male Phalangium opilio), showing the almost fused arrangement of abdomen and cephalothorax that distinguishes these arachnids from spiders.
Reason
It has good quality and gives great amount of info on the anatomy of Harvestmen.
Comment: I don't think this will be promoted, based on DOF, lack of sharpness of body, and cut off legs. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-07-14 18:45Z
Thanks for the comment. But I don't think DOF should be a reason since the main part of the body is in focus and a macro shot of a Harvestmen with all legs in focus is impossible in this angle. As you know, the legs are huge. Only a fraction of the leg is cut off and the image appears sharp if viwed at screen resolution (ex. 1280X1024 [Which is higher than the minimum 1000 required]. That's just my opinion. -Arad (talk) 21:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If the body itself were completely in focus, I could see it having a chance, but I don't the body is completely in focus. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-07-15 18:50Z
It is a photo of the USMC War Memorial taken during the sunset "magic hour" with the Ceremonial Marchers and Silent Drill Platoon of Marine Barracks Washington not only lending solemnity and a link to the modern USMC, but also giving perspective to the immense size of the memorial. It adds significantly to the article because it is the only photo with human figures to lend it perspective. —Elipongo (Talkcontribs) 20:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Adult specimen of Agalychnis callidryas displaying its bright side markingsEdit 2 - A different crop into 4:3, else same as Edit 1 by Mfield
Reason
High resolution (6 megapixel), encyclopedic image of Agalychnis callidryas. DOF isn't perfect, but lots of wow factor. Not currently featured anywhere, as far as I know.
Support Edit1Edit 2 Added Edit 1 to address problem of distracting faces in background and slight selective sharpen on frog as well. Mfield (talk) 21:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I def. like how you removed the faces and the other improvements, but I liked when the frog was at the center of the photo. Perhaps some of the left should be cropped as well. smooth0707 (talk) 01:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think he was trying to preserve the original aspect ratio (2:3). I would suggest either being less severe with the crop or changing to a 3:4 aspect ratio. Kaldari (talk) 01:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Bingham Canyon Mine, November 1942. A train in the background carries material to the dump.
Reason
Bingham Canyon Mine in Utah has been in operation since 1906 and its cumulative production of copper ranks second in the world. It also produces large quantities of gold, silver, and molybdenum. This early color photograph gives a sense for the size of the operation in 1942. Restored version of Image:Bingham Canyon Mine 1942.jpg.
Support Great capture to the photographer, great find to the nominator. Can you move this picture up in the article, and the one on the left down, but make the thumb a bit bigger? I will if no-one else finds the time. A little formatting of the picture in the article would be nice.--Blechnic (talk) 22:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support I have really nothing to add; clearly a fantastic image, one which you really benefit from viewing at full-size. Fletcher (talk) 15:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The Tawny Frogmouth, Podargus strigoides, is an Australian variety of frogmouth. Frogmouths generally remain sitting very still on a low perch, and wait for food to come to them.Edit 1 Cropped subject.
Reason
A good quality photo of the subject showing the plumage from side on which is good for identification purposes. Taken at night and a wild bird - best image on wiki of the species.
Support. Crop in original version is aesthetic, but should be fine. Oppose additionally cropped version (edit 1) - does not improve thumbnail zoom all that much, and takes away the aesthetics. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 19:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support crop I actually find the head on flash lighting leaves the image lifeless and and flat. I do not understand the opposers to the crop, this is WP, not commons, the big black space to the right adds nothing to the enc value and here its regular for people to want images cropped to subject rather than trying to be artsy with composition. Mfield (talk) 00:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Preserved Orange Roughy specimen at Melbourne MuseumCropped - Cropped and darkened. (From different source image so fish has a higher pixel count.)
Oppose: While a seemingly encyclopedic image that shows good detail of the fish, I don't think the composition is as good as it might be. Ideally, since the fish is not extinct, a live image is preferable, although I admit that could be much harder to acquire. Aside from that, I don't think it's framed well, with unrelated specimens visible in glass beakers off to the sides. We want to focus the eye on the subject fish as a fish, not as a specimen sitting on a museum shelf. Fletcher (talk) 16:58, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree with Fletcher. Even if the other stuff was cropped out, I still don't think this has the technical quality to be an FP. SpencerT♦C23:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support original - better context. Reminds me of a label on a jar in our museum: "If you drink the alcohol, please at least leave the specimen"... ;-) --Janke | Talk13:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly support original, especially for inclusion in science museum - so much "wow"! Strongly oppose alt - no "wow". I have to plagiarize Papa Lima Whiskey on this one, this is so typical of science museums, the smaller ones all around the world, and the larger ones. It's a catchy thumbnail. The edited version is worthless. --Blechnic (talk) 23:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both. Needs a considerable cleanup. Dust spot above its nose and all sorts of white specks (presumeably on the glass) appearing all over the fish. I disagree with the above comments - the crop is definetely an improvement composition wise as the original shows too little to be useful as an illustration of a science museum and too much to be useful as an illustration of the fish (ie sit on the fence and you fail both sides). I also think the darkening in the edit was a mistake - made the lighting even worse. --Fir000207:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Original - edit removes context which is the important thing here - making it useless. There is literally no better illustration of this type of science museum and the composition is just lovely. It shows plenty - If you've been to any European science museum, you'd know that this kind of thing is absolutely typical for biological displays. All it's missing is the floor and cieling and honestly those parts of the museum are neither exciting or necessary for illustration of what one might see typically. The colors are a bit ethereal and creepy, which suits the subject of it being a preserved specimen perfectly. The contrast of the bluish glass and orangish fish is really nice. It's encyclopedia, it's pretty, it's interesting (hello fish guts!) and it works. (And if you are going to complain about cleanup, the least you can do it take a stab at it.) pschemp | talk13:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: "Literally no better": what about a composition that did not cut off specimens and beakers? A composition that was not tilted (unless done so for effect)? A composition that showed a wider perspective of the museum, rather than just a few items? An exposure with softer lighting? By contrast, the van de graff generator in science museum is pretty awesome, despite low technical quality. This image is a decent representation of the animal, but I just don't see how it's a good illustration of a science museum. And I agree with Fir0002 that the image can't be straddling the fence: if it's good at one, it can't be good at the other. Fletcher (talk) 16:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although I disagree with your conclusion, Fletcher, you have offered some points to the photographer to consider for redoing this image. There was no need to comment out another's post, Papa Lima Whiskey. Now that's a wow! --Blechnic (talk) 19:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, we can do this ad infinitum. I have to say though, you're working hard on building a reputation for being disruptive as far as I can see. I'm sure people will say having said so works against me, but I can't help being honest. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 01:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, btw, not only is "commenting out" not an entirely fair description of what the {{hidden}} template does, you're also missing the fact that I included my own comments in the action. That's exactly why I'm calling your behaviour disruptive. Because you're misrepresenting the facts. But let's move on to your own behaviour in discussions, where you failed to back up your claims regarding micrographs of leaf surface structure, instead taking recourse to weasely language, and failed to revise your opinion of a chameleon picture that you previously claimed was encyclopaedic for its habitat, but turned out to not *be* in its natural habitat where the picture was taken (Hawaii; chamaeleons are native to Madagascar and Africa). Now, I gave exact reasons why this whole discussion needs to be commented out (it refers to another picture on the article rather than the current nominee), now more so than ever. What are your reasons for opposing this action? Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 19:13, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want the discussion commented out (or hidden, if you prefer) because it's hilarious. I'm a big fan of unintentional self parody. After forking the thread once to argue with me about an unrelated photo, then forking your fork to pick a fight with Blechnic, bringing up unrelated disagreements you've had with her in the past, you insist that she's being disruptive. No, it's too funny. I can see why you'd want it hidden, but a better solution, from your standpoint, is not to parody yourself in such a way. Fletcher (talk) 22:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support (and oppose edit). PLW puts it well. I'd be willing to support a slight crop (and/or tilt?) that removes the slanted table edge from the bottom, but I don't think it's a big deal to leave it in. The angle used is appropriate for the main subject in terms of showing its context in the container. --ragesoss (talk) 17:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from the photographer: I left the surroundings there to give it some context and a hint of size, but did not mean to illustrate a science museum specifically, but I'm not objectionable to the idea. I did not remove the dust because I'm showing what's there, and not some ideal specimen -- besides which, you can hardly notice it unless you view at 100%. The tilt is accidental, but correcting it just made the image seem off. I would not personally nominate a fresher specimen as I'd hate to encourage the consumption of this fish which already has an unsustainable harvest. —Pengo11:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
hahaha Support the original just because the picture is so striking with the glass case; even though it doesn't enhance the orange roughy article, it definately enhances science museum (what do you see every time you visit a life science museum? dead stuff in jars!) the edit takes away a lot, in my opinion Intothewoods29 (talk) 23:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This bracteate represents a number of concepts unfamiliar with many but rich in information and I believe it meets all of the quality requirements. The bracteate is about the size of a large coin, and I believe this is a faithful and very detailed photograph of an object from around the 5th century the size of a coin.
Support. While it's my own work, I think it's most appropriate for a featured picture in that not only do I believe it meets the technical specifications required, but also that it has heavy encyclopedic value: many people would find this otherwise heavily under represented subject matter of interest. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unless it can be brightened. Poor exposure. Otherwise a good image. The subject is the coin, not the display lighting. —Pengo05:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This image shows one of the finest bracteates from the time, and is of high quality. The concepts represented on the bracteate are, as bloodofox said, unfamiliar for many; a great reason to enlighten people. I think the contrast between the black background and the warm gold creates a very good tone. –HoltT•C07:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I am also confused about these comments of the image being "blown out", and, frankly, I don't see how a photograph of a bracteate could much better unless it were shot with an increased megapixel coint, if at all - especially when shot through glass and with 10x zoom. Perhaps some further background on the object is required: this is exactly what the object looks look. The object is from the Migration Period: all those details you see are on an object the size of a coin from around the 5th century, originally worn around the neck, somehow escaping being melted down, then either dug out of the ground or in a private collection for who knows how long and under who knows what conditions until ending up in a museum collection - so it's not going to look like mint. There's nothing obscured here - this is exactly what this ancient Migration Period object looks like - it is not a reconstruction. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support either. Excellent detail. Assuming the patina is intact, the color should be darker than normal, as it is here. The photo was a little underexposed (no features in the darkest crevices), but the damage is minimal. We have promoted images with more blown highlights/shadows than this. — BRIAN0918 • 2008-07-10 16:39Z
Comment. Could you be more specific? Do you realize this is an object the size of a coin? There's no more detail to show - this is it. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because for one it is primarily an image of text, rather than a picture in its own right. And while a nice addition to the article I don't think it conveys much encyclopedic information about him. Fletcher (talk) 19:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Pictures that are primarily text are not be a problem per se - just think of images illustrating typography topics. But this image, as Fletcher has said, isn't particularly encyclopaedic for the article. And just to forestall anyone suggesting this, I don't think cropping to the portrait would be particularly useful, since the craftsmanship seems rather low, as well as the resolution. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 19:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This a rare gem in wikipedia, a free image to illustrate an almost impsossible genre to find free images for, TV fiction, and at thirty years old, makes it even rarer. An image of the Doctor in his iconic costume
No, the vehicle also seems tilted relative to the frame. Anyway, it's just my opinion, but I think others will say the same thing. Just giving you some warning. :) The general rule is that the head should be roughly above where the feet are. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 20:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose In addition to tilt, it's horribly grainy, has negative scratches and dust spots, and is not very sharp. --Janke | Talk20:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose quality and low resolution. Presumably this has been created from a microfiche or similar as there a distinctly un-filmlike pattern in the grain. Now if they could locate the original negative and scan it properly then it would be more likely to succeed. I can't believe there aren't any better, color images of him about. Mfield (talk) 21:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Licensing seems dubious. Why would a commercial newspaper license an image under CC-by-sa? Is there an OTRS ticket or other evidence that this is true? Kaldari (talk) 22:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the newspaper's website is full copyright, all rights reserved. I'm guessing they don't own the rights to the photograph itself and ran it under a fair use rationale, but there doesn't appear to be any basis at all for the copyleft assertion. DurovaCharge!11:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose Terrible quality, I have also seen colour photos of this character so the encyclopaedic value of this image is diminished as one misses out on the colourful outfit. Capital photographer (talk) 06:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawal request: Permission for use on Wikipedia has been lodged with OTRS. However, given the grainy quality of this picture, I would ask that this nomination be withdrawn.-- Seahamlass23:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A map of Boston, Massachusetts in 1775 showing tactical positions from a British perspective.
Reason
A period map of Boston, Massachusetts from the beginning of the American Revolution depicting the most rebellious city from the standpoint of British tactical interests. Highly detailed treatment includes legible descriptions of individual streets and wharfs. Restored version of Image:Boston, 1775small1.png.
No doubt - support. Perhaps only image name should be changed into something like Map of Boston 1775 instead of Boston, 1775bsmall1. M.K. (talk) 11:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The main issue is that PNG files are not well suited to this sort of image with lots of texture (it is essentially photographic rather than diagrammatic). I just resaved it as a JPG with very low compression (11 out of 12 quality on the PS scale) and it came out at 5mb - three times smaller, with absolutely no perceptible difference as far as I could see. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)20:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind; I just thought the file sizes of recent scans seemed larger than usual. But if Diliff is right about JPGs I imagine that would be only for the final version, with PNGs or tiffs used for working copies. (?) Fletcher (talk) 20:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, usually .tif is my working copy. I just didn't need to convert the .png. I aim to please, though. Thanks for the heads up. :) DurovaCharge!21:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - well done Durova, again. I think I'll print this out and frame it now that I've just moved in a bit north of ... Mount Wheredome (?) deBivort14:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For a sixteen megabyte file I found it surprisingly painless to print out. Think I'll make copies to pass out to tourists. >:-) Fletcher (talk) 22:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Stains, dirt, and similar paper damage can be eliminated with the clone stamp. Basically it means constructing multiple source zones that match the target area in brightness, color, and appropriate paper grain, then going in 2 pixels wide at 800% resolution and 60%-80% hardness to trace the outer region surrounding all sides of each individual penstroke. The most visible area where I've done that in this image is the heading at the upper left corner. That took about 6 hours. I've done similar work on other lettering in this map, but not quite with the same intensive care. Is there a specific area you have in mind? DurovaCharge!00:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support, really great, but question: do your sources provide any information about the odd names here? Copp's Hill seems to be labeled Corps Hill, which is interesting, and what the heck is that "Mount Whoredom" just below Beacon Hill? Just a crude British joke? Chick Bowen21:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent question. I retrieved this from the maps department of the Library of Congress, which yields a better file quality than a scan from a history book but omits the background on those interesting tidbits. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Mount Whoredom was the red light district; the eighteenth century was frank about such matters. Benjamin Franklin even published a pamphlet called "The Whoremaster's Guide to London". DurovaCharge!21:46, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A bit of googling suggests you are quite right. Fascinating. Someone should start a petition to have that put on the street signs (that neighborhood contains some of the priciest real estate in the city). Chick Bowen02:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strange what turns up after searching enough archival files...I present this highly encyclopedic and (in case you were wondering, declassified) satellite image of southeastern Iraq prepared by the Central Intelligence Agency in 1992 to identify strategic locations within the country. Restored version of Image:Iraq 1992 CIAsmaller.png with minor changes only to the margins--removing the Library of Congress stamp and related pencil marks.
Weak Oppose Great for people unfamiliar with the area, but especially with something like Google Maps/World, its not especially informative or interesting. smooth0707 (talk) 23:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The encyclopedic value is in the particular labeling, who performed it, and for what prospective purpose. Bear in mind also the technical limitations of the period. DurovaCharge!00:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per smooth. The image doesn't make me want to know more about it. The article does. It may be remarkable for the function it served, but in illustrating the subject of the article it fails to stand out.Dwayne Reed (talk) 19:32, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I think I would support this if the caption or article described *how* this map was used to determine military options (e.g. US strategy focused on pushing Iraqi forces into the desert/the marshes/away from airfields/away from oilfields/whatever, and this was achieved by deploying the X forces from Y in a Northerly/Westerly/etc. direction). Maybe indicate those movements on the map, as we've done for a gazillion other military history illustrations? Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 23:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support As maps and satellite images go, this isn't too great (see whiskey, above). But because it's what the CIA used, this image has use in CIA activities in Iraq. Note the image isn't being used for an article about Southeastern Iraq, but for this, which is why I think it deserves a support. SpencerT♦C18:50, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Rajputs or Rajpoots, seen here in an Illustrated London News series on India in commemoration of the British Royal Family visit in 1876, are one of the major HinduKshatriya groups from India. They claim descent from ancient royal warrior dynasties.
Reason
Another fine engraving from the Illustrated London News, showing Victorian India.
Weak Oppose Not a great image, and it doesn't seem to add much. The article doesn't seem consistent with the images that appear in it. I can't tell from this image or the others what traditional clothing looks like, nor how it contributes significantly to the encyclopedic value. It adds something, but not much. The article does much more for the subject.Dwayne Reed (talk) 19:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose for similar reasons; a nice image, to be sure, but other images on the page also show their clothing, and it doesn't seem to explain a whole lot about them, nor does it wow me. Perhaps even the subject matter itself has a muted feel to it -- a bunch of guys, sitting around talking. Fletcher (talk) 02:43, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Belgian milk peddlers with a dogcart, c. 1890-1900.Edit 1 - streaks at upper right repaired.
Reason
Large, good quality photochrom file from approximately 110 years ago showing two peddlers selling milk from a dogcart. The proportions of the cart and its harness are clearly depicted, as is the act of selling milk in this historic setting near Brussels, Belgium. Restored version of Image:Dogcart.jpg.
The sky and the grassy area to the right of the dirt path. They darken towards the right edge of the image, which I'm guessing is damage to the original rather than the way the original was originally printed. Support edit 1Spikebrennan (talk) 23:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. High encyclopedic value for its uses in Dogcart and Peddler, and a lovely image. It's amazing how similar in style and subject a lot of photochroms are to paintings of the same time period.--ragesoss (talk) 21:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support Edit 1. It's a very nice and encyclopedic image, but I can't give it my full support because I feel the darkening image hasn't been addressed enough, especially in the lower right of the image. The path also gets darker, but the edit didn't change that at all. However, this could merely be shadows or something, so I can't oppose on those grounds. NauticaShades22:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I have trouble believing the colour of the milk containers (and the hats, for that matter, but the milk containers are a more central subject). For me, this image treads an uneasy ground between artwork and photography, and I think that message needs to be clear in the captions in all articles - that the colours are likely inaccurate. We unambiguously label all other artwork and false colour images in the captions afaik. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 10:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The S. A. Andrée station at Spitsbergen, from a photochrom print at the end of the nineteenth century.Edit 1 - Selective sharpening and denoising.
Tough request: the sharpening options don't normally produce the kinds of benefits for photochroms that they do for other types of photography--photochrom is a hybrid medium. We're dealing with lithography worked over a slightly grainy black and white photograph and some of the dyes used in this process have a tendency to mottle as they age. I'll see what I can do and upload if it generates any improvements. DurovaCharge!21:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support (original preferred I think) Interesting enough image to make up for its softness (at 1024px it's fine). I wonder if the noise can be reduced though. —Pengo01:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A picture of the hangar from which the balloon launched doesn't seem highly encyclopedic, except during the actual launching. The people being photographed are distracting, unless we can identify them as two of the explorers. Fletcher (talk) 14:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Helene Dutrieu in her airplane, c. 1911. Dutrieu was the first Belgian woman to earn a pilot's license.
Reason
Helene Dutrieu was the fourth woman in the world to earn a pilot's license and possibly the first to carry passengers. She was the first woman to earn the French Legion of Honor for aviation. She was also world cycling champion, a stunt motorcyclist, an automobile racer, a wartime ambulance driver, and director of a military hospital. I've located and restored a well composed but very dirty archival file of her c. 1911 in her aircraft (the original Image:Dutrieua.jpg had 12,000-15,000 dirt and dust specks). Hard work, which I hope is worth it.
Oppose. Sorry to rain on the party, but this picture just doesn't have the wow factor that marks an FP for me. Wish there was more of the plain visible, then I would probably support. Very nicely done restoration, Durova, but the photographer is the person whom I blame for this one. Clegs (talk) 15:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose. The quality is far from superb, and I don't think that it is a well composed if you take its subject to be Dutrieu. The wires and beams obstruct our view, and are quite distracting. Besides, if she wasn't a well known pilot and the caption didn't say so, it would be difficult for an uninformed viewer to deduce that she was in an airplane. Good job on the restoration, though. NauticaShades22:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I can pretty much echo the sentiments of Nautica and Clegs. I was tempted to support because of the shoes, but really, that's a very small exciting detail in a picture that, overall, doesn't positively surprise me. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 23:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support : Good enc. value, good "pop" -- Dutrieu was a babe! --and is clearly having a ball. Part of the pop is that she appears (at first glance) to be flying barefoot. [Looks at article] Wow. She was a cycling world champion, stunt cyclist, stunt motorcyclist, automobile racer, stunt driver, pioneer aviator, wartime ambulance driver, and director of a military hospital! A proto extreme-sports babe! Excellent photo, great story. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 17:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support. As others point out, the composition could have been much better with just some slight adjustments. Still, it's a very interesting shot, and in my view the wires that NauticaShades points out are features, not bugs.--ragesoss (talk) 18:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - An adult Sydney Flatwing, Austroargiolestes isabellae
Reason
High quality image of a Sydney Flatwing, which unusually for a damselfly holds its wings perpendicular to its body. Here it is seen perched on rushes on the banks of Swifts Creek
Oppose The ends of the wings appear out of focus. There isn't enough detail on the thorax/abdomen, the reflection makes it difficult to clearly recognize the segmentation of the body. The structure of the eyes are unapparent. At first glance the green of the plants stand out more than the insect itself. The other image (Image:Sympetrum flaveolum - side (aka).jpg) on the dragonfly article is already featured and I would say deserves to be more so than this particular image. Based on the previous works of the creator, another image of this organism of better quality could probably be made.Becky Sayles (talk) 00:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I withdraw my comparison to the other image of a dragonfly, but maintain opposition based on other issues. Additionally, the encyclopedic value of this image in the dragonfly article is limited. It appears next to a section about confusing dragonflies and damselflies (apparently we all made this mistake), but the key feature described is the position of the wings, which makes this image somewhat confusing even with appropriate captioning. Perhaps in the Megapodagrionidae article it adds value, but it is also difficult to tell be cause the article is nearly empty. The first in damselfly (Image:Common blue damselfly02.jpg) has lower technical quality, but does a much better job illustrating features of the organism. As for the majority of other images on wikipedia, most are pretty lousy. But this one's just not as good as it should be to be featured. If we upload more and more crappy pictures, then by comparison all the ones here should be featured. The biggest part of WIAFP that seems appropriate for this picture is "It illustrates the subject in a compelling way, making the viewer want to know more. " and I don't believe it does.Becky Sayles (talk) 17:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Above votes comparing this image to Aka's fine dragonfly picture are completely unfair and unjustifiable by WIAFP - should all building photos be judged against one of Diliff's amazing super pano's??!!! No! Judge the image on it's own qualities/faults - and if you can't find any faults for goodness sake dont invent any by making comparisons with one of the best dragonfly pictures on wiki (note dragonfly rather than damselfly!!). --Fir000207:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And just to preempt a #3 claim from WIAFP - you're looking at it from the wrong direction. Compare the image with the majority of other images available on wiki to determine whether it is amongst the best. --Fir000208:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Great detail on the legs, shows the spikes nicely. Good to see a damselfly , there are too many dragonfly images! I love the detail and angle you have of the wing/body joints. The eye's are classic damselfly and captured well. GameKeeper (talk) 01:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support. I'll admit there isn't a whole lot of detail, one wing isn't in focus, and there are double shadows, but when you take the image holistically, it deserves the feature. It's encyclopedic and visually pleasing. NauticaShades22:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
John F. Kennedy motorcade, Dallas, Texas, Nov. 22, 1963. Photograph shows a close-up view of President and Mrs. Kennedy and Texas Governor John Connally and his wife. Simple crop of the archival scan, approx. 9 megapixels
Reason
Only free image found so far that depicts the motorcade moments prior to the JFK assassination. I feel that the encyclopedic value of this photograph far outweighs any concerns over its artistic merit or technical quality. Originally uploaded to the commons as Image:John F. Kennedy motorcade, Dallas.jpg. The original archival scan is now available at Image:John F. Kennedy motorcade, Dallas.png or in .tiff format at [12]. Current image processing software employed in MediaWiki prohibits posting a thumbnail of the original scan as it exceeds 12.5 megapixels. The crop is just a preliminary suggestion, I'd love to see some FPC regulars take a crack at cleaning up the scan.
Neutral Taken from a unique vantage point to all others I have seen of Kennedy's motorcade through Dallas. The quality of the original is quite poor though understandable for an image from that era. Capital photographer (talk) 06:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are definitely better quality shots of the motorcade, unfortunately they are all protected by copyright. ˉˉanetode╦╩06:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose After the Brandeis portrait, this is rather poorly restored. I'm willing to pardon composition and detail but the dust, speckles, etc. are inexcusable given the excellent restoration abilities of some Wikipedians.--HereToHelp(talk to me)17:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not that confident in my restoration abilities :) I apologize as this nomination now appears to be a bit premature, since the cropped scan exhibits a number of fixable blemishes. I'd appreciate it if Durova, or any other FPC regular, take some time to see what could be done to improve the quality of this photo. Perhaps in the meantime it is best to move this nomination to a more appropriate forum, like WP:GL or WP:PPR. Nonetheless, I believe that this photo is a substantial asset of our free content community. ˉˉanetode╦╩08:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Although this image is about half as old as the Brandeis image, technical and circumstantial factors are quite different. The Brandeis image is a formal portrait taken under studio conditions, and that had extensive damage that took roughly 20 hours to restore. This is a snapshot taken on the day of President Kennedy's assassination, and the photographer has released it to the public domain. On a technical level these two images are not very comparable. I might be able to do something with the image file (no promises), but really suggest weighing the special historical nature of this photograph. Better portraits of Kennedy may be available, but would they carry such meaning? DurovaCharge!07:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, but this image is still inferior to what it (not some other picture) could be. I will gladly revise my vote if a well-restored version is presented, and I won't judge how well is "well-restored" based on Brandeis.--HereToHelp(talk to me)17:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Please don't simply remove a nom from the FPC page. In a case like this where holding off for a bit might produce a better picture, the nomination can be moved to the suspended list. Removing the nom from the FPC page completely is just asking for it to go missing. Also, I was giving the cleanup a go myself and then thought I was going nuts when I couldn't find the nomination anywhere (here or on PPR, I wasn't 100% sure where I saw it). Matt Deres (talk) 14:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I was not aware of the proper procedure for suspending noms. I can assure you that this one will not go missing, it's too good of a learning experience for me for things to avoid should I ever nominate a picture again :) ˉˉanetode╦╩21:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support/Comment despite suspended status...I don't really understand why the image needs to be revamped...if the goal is to promote an image that makes you want to "read its accompanying article," (which I think this image certainly does), isn't that enough? This photo really encapsulates recent American history (in my opinion), and I think photoshop work to an original image would detract from it. I make this statement keeping in mind the fact that this picture was from the 1960s, when photography wasn't what it is today. smooth0707 (talk) 02:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wish I could give a better answer or one that didn't come so close to an npa violation but the truth is that voters (and despite the wording saying that it isn't a vote that's what they are) on FPC by and large and with little exception are shallow. They'll oppose for the silliest and most inconsequential reasons, they will demand that an image be redone and/or digitally corrected and then find something else to complaina about or complain that the image isn't real because it was digitally corrected. I won't rant any more on the topic because this is not the place but I honestly blame this attitude for the fact that we don't have many long term high quality contributors anymore. Cat-five - talk04:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeComment - Unfortunately. Its certainly unique, but the quality is not very good at all. I see it is being revamped, will re-evaluate my vote once this happens. ← κεηηε∂γ(talk)14:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Give it some more time, the restoration process still has a little ways to go. I'd like to thank Durova for her efforts in restoring the image. As for listing, I see no hurry, this nomination could just as easily be transcluded to the July 2008 list :) ˉˉanetode╦╩02:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'd suggest that these votes given during the time the nomination has been suspended until it is un-suspended be treated as comments unless the commentor comes in after the nomination is started again and affirms their vote since otherwise it defeats the whole purpose of suspending the nomination since we have gotten two votes (1 support 1 oppose) since the suspension as far as I can tell. Cat-five - talk04:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. I'll close it tomorrow if no one can come up with a compelling reason to leave it here any longer (or unless someone else closes it first). --jjron (talk) 09:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't easy to get a good photograph shooting through a binocular lens and this is quite a sight. It's the only photograph of this type on Wikipedia or Commons and it happens to be a view of an encyclopedic subject: a United States NavyLCAChovercraft assigned to USS Iwo Jima (LHD-7). For reference, the type of binoculars used for this shot is Image:Navy binoculars.jpg.
Support, impressive shot through the binoculars with good detail on the subject. DoF is better than most shots of this kind, keeping the binocular eye cup acceptably clear (so we know what we're looking through). Could use more eels. -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Skepticism - I really doubt this is through binoculars. It looks much more like a porthole. 1) It is not round - I have never seen binoculars (or any optics set up) with non round lenses. 2) You can see a weld-point at left, suggesting the housing is metal. 3) The tube is in near focus throughout - intervening lenses would have to make some of that tube unfocused. 4) The tube is all dinged up with pits and scratches, not like a piece of optics built to fine enough tolerances to generate a universally sharp image like that. 5) there is lots of light hitting the inside of the binocular tube/porthole - since the focal distance for binoculars is very short (You have to put your head right up against them) - how can this much light be getting in with the camera sufficiently close? 6) That there is no blur, even on the outside of the "lens" challenges credibility. I've taken photos through binoculars before, and there is always blur. [14]. deBivort17:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Nominator linked to Image:Navy binoculars.jpg which appear to be heavy duty, metal binoculars mounted to a ship, which would explain their condition. I can't explain why it doesn't appear circular -- an optical illusion maybe? The lighting appears to have been extremely bright -- 1/500th second exposure at f/8, so there was plenty of daylight to illuminate the tube. Additionally, a porthole shot is unlikely, because you'd have to wait for the hovercraft to enter your field of view, and how would you even know you're stationed at the right porthole! It would have to be an extremely lucky shot. By contrast, the binocs can surely swivel on their mount. Lastly, and no offense, but a navy photog with a dSLR can likely take pictures you can't get with that Olympus P&S. I'd still be curious how he or she took it. Fletcher (talk) 18:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The linked binoculars appear to have plastic eye pieces - they are smooth and without weld points. They cannot be the same as the tube we see here. Optical illusion taking a circle and rendering it as a rounded rectangle? Please... You could know which is the right porthole by looking over the rail - portholes are often built right into the gunwale of large ships look along the tires. As for the olympus shot vs DSLR, true, but with my new D20, I have found identical constraints shooting through both binoculars and microscopes. other military photos too. Honestly, there is no way the microscope or binocular housing can be in focus while the subject is also in focus. The light paths through the lenses don't work that way. look a the light path and tell me how the entire length of the tube could be uniformly in focus. deBivort18:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hehe - I know exactly what's going on here. Through the porthole you can see wake preceeding the hovercraft. This is because LHD 7 has a stern loading bay for hover craft. Take a look at this military blog and this image. The aft rail of the ship, the one with the obvious shot of the approaching hover craft has portholes that are easily visible in that photo! They even are of the correct shape! deBivort19:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Plausible... I wasn't too convinced by your tugboat image, as the Iwo Jima doesn't seem to have portholes on the gunnel like that, but it looks like it does have them on the stern.Fletcher (talk) 19:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I also share doubts that it is taken through binoculars... and even if it were, I don't see the encyclopaedic value of a photo of a hovercraft taken through binoculars. ;-) To me, the housing of whatever it is we're looking through is simply a distraction, in the same way that artificially introduced vignetting is a distraction. The actual image of the hovercraft is quite good, but to crop the image to remove the 'binoculars' would make the resulting framing too tight. I just don't think it works particularly well as an encyclopaedic photo. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)19:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW I thought about the hole as a distraction, but ended up thinking that it was good for this image, since it shows a view of the craft from its "mother ship", kind of uniting the two ships into a single system. Not bad since it illustrates both the hovercraft and LHD 7 articles. Admittedly, a steady shot from a third ship along side the landing scene would probably be better. deBivort19:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced.. I agree that the concept you mentioned is a good idea, but surely a view that actually shows the "mother ship" as something more than an out of focus, unidentifiable metallic frame around the main subject would be better. I don't think that this particular photo gains anything from this composition. Even just a photo from an elevated position (such as the control room maybe?) looking down at the stern of the ship toward the hovercraft would be far better. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)19:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I don't think it should be removed from the binoculars page; it's the only example of looking through a pair of binoculars there. Also, what if there's no lens at all? Intothewoods29 (talk) 21:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Is this about binoculars a joke? Permit me to doubt that this is shot through binoculars. I've made such shots myself, but they never turn out as sharp as this one - there has always been some chromatic aberration, as well as loss of focus at the edges of the image. Furthermore, the source page states: A landing craft air cushion assigned to Assault Craft Unit 4 approaches the multipurpose amphibious assault ship USS Iwo Jima (LHD 7) while under way in the Atlantic Ocean July 8, 2008. The Iwo Jima Expeditionary Strike Group is conducting a composite unit training exercise, which provides a realistic training environment to ensure the strike group’s deployment capabilities and readiness. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Michael Starkey/Released) - nothing at all about binoculars! To me, it looks like it is shot through one of those cast iron holes (er, the hole is in the casting, to be precise) used for passing ropes through (I don't know the proper term for it, sorry...) You can even see raised lettering typical of cast iron items in the upper left corner... --Janke | Talk21:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment To the doubters, I respect your concerns. U.S. Navy "big eyes" binoculars have removable synthetic rubber facial cushions. Those were removed for this particular shot and were installed for the other featured picture of the binoculars. And yes, "big eyes" viewpieces do have this shape. If any doubts remain, please contact the webmaster at DefenseImagery.mil. It's an official U.S. Government website and the armed forces policies restricting image manipulation are extremely strict. Editors who know my professional experience may trust my word (and it does relate directly to these concerns), yet for the rest of FPC voters--the horse's mouth is a few clicks from the source link. Respectfully, DurovaCharge!21:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why doesn't the text on the image source page state it is a shot through binoculars? Is it just an assumption, or can you point us to a reference saying it is, please? If so, I'll retract my doubt... --Janke | Talk21:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not enough for me - please note the perspective of the hovercraft - if shot through binoculars, there should not be as strong a convergence between the lines of the left and right edges (draw the lines) - you'd expect the typical "crunched" perspective of a long tele lens... Interesting, though - and in fact, I'd like to be proved wrong on this ... ;-) --Janke | Talk22:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, perhaps my recollection fails me. It's been a few years since I served. Will check this out at oh-dark-thirty; the office is probably on East Coast time. ;) DurovaCharge!22:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the logic Janke has used here. And in addition to the issue of a relatively wide perspective (consider also how far below the horizon the hovercraft is. Either the ship is extremely tall and you are looking through 20x magnification telephoto binoculars, or the ship is just pretty close to the hovercraft, which seems more likely to me), I imagine that if you were to take a photo directly into the binocular eyepiece, you would have to do it from very close up, in much the same way as a human viewer does. And if you were to take it from close up, the frame of the eyepiece would be far more out of focus than it is in this shot. This is purely intuitive, but from my experience, with an aperture of f/8, focal length of 24mm and with that degree of out-of-focus-blur, I would imagine that the photographer was half a metre or more away from the eyepiece/port hole/whatever it was. So as I said, intuitively, to me, it just doesn't make sense to be binoculars. Oh, and I had a quick look on Flickr for images of the stern of the Wasp class, and I didn't find any close ups with good detail, but this was probably the best of the ones I did find, and there are some suspiciously similar looking port holes that could well be what the photographer shot through. Just a thought anyway. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)23:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The DOF isn't a problem for me - you can adjust binoculars so that the plane of focus is almost anywhere - even close to the eyepiece! Scrutinizing the image closely, there's one thing that points to a glassed-in hole (maybe even lensed-in...), i.e. not a rope hole as I originally assumed: at top right, there is a smudge in the image that couldn't be hanging in mid-air, and there are a few circular out-of focus smudges in the image itself - more out-of-focus than the edge of the oval... This is very interesting - maybe I'm wrong and it is a binocular image after all? Amazing aberration-free quality, in that case. Proof, please! ;-) --Janke | Talk06:45, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that smudges could just as easily be water droplets on the camera lens itself, though. I've got many photos taken in the rain with somewhat similar smudges. And the DOF may not be a problem (not having had any experience taking photos through binoculars, I must admit), but surely the vertical angle that the photo was taken from should be as I mentioned above. It just seems an implausibly steep angle for such high magnification (large distance to subject and steep angle = very high camera location). And that, combined with the perspective of the hovercraft, points towards the photo being directly photographed. But I suppose we're best off waiting for Durova's proof! Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)07:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I found this image which is far more high res and has some almost identically shaped slightly oblong portholes at the stern just like the one in this nomination. I'm almost positive this is what was shot through - not the binoculars... Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)23:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Withdraw nomination - haven't gotten a reply yet, but as I think about it this is better not to run without certainty. Removing from the binoculars article as a preventive measure and will re-initiate only if confirmation is forthcoming. After sleeping on the matter, it really is better to be certain about this. Thanks, DurovaCharge!02:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Early panorama of an important North American harbor. I ran this on peer review because of concerns about the height (it's plenty wide). Responses were generally positive. Restored version of Image:Boston Harbor 1876.jpg.
Weak oppose. It's a very cool image, but between the small height, the limited palette, the fact that most of the detail falls within a narrow band and is hard to make out clearly, and the awkwardly cut off ship on the lower right, I think this has too many negatives for FP.--ragesoss (talk) 06:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support in keeping with my comments on PPR. Shows good detail of the port, a variety of ships in the harbor, looks like the State House in the background, the Old North Church right-center, and the Bunker Hill monument on the right. I don't like the warehouse roof getting in the way, but how many nineteenth century panoramas of Boston do we have? I'm more forgiving of its faults. Fletcher (talk) 13:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Just because it's historic and with a lot of imagination, we can figure out what the buildings are in spite of their small resolution, doesn't mean this can get anywhere near FP status. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 12:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose Good picture, but rather short, and hard to tell where the historical landmarks of the city are. Good picture, but not quite FP. Clegs (talk) 20:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I hope I didn't skew the discussion by pointing out several of the landmarks in the background. Durova can correct me if I'm wrong, but the image is supposed to be mainly encyclopedic with respect to the port not to the city as a whole, and I think it is very encyclopedic showing a historical image of the port. By way of comparison New York Harbor doesn't have any nineteenth century photos, much less panoramas. Fletcher (talk) 22:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This image appears at the history section of the port article. It depicts the ships, slips, warehouses, etc. of 1876. As a photograph it provides a more reliable documentation than an artist's depiction (some artists add additional ships to harbor scenes to make a port look busier than it is) and panorama format provides a broader scope than ordinary photography. This example is a few decades older than most of the archival panorama photography I've been able to locate, and this type of shot--specifically of the harbor, rather than a vista of the sea as seen from the city--is unusual. It is unlikely we'll ever have a better depiction of Boston harbor of the 1870s. DurovaCharge!00:55, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think there's one single ship that provides enough detail for me to get an idea of what it is, and it may actually be the most anachronistic ship in the image. That's the sailing ship on the very left of the picture. Everything else is just beyond recognisable. I think a map might do better if the layout of the harbour is the main interest. If the age of the photograph makes it notable, it should be added to an appropriate article with a new caption. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 06:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
San Francisco harbor, 1851 (another featured picture for comparison).
If you know of a location that would be more appropriate than the history section of the Port of Boston article, I'll gladly add it there too. DurovaCharge!07:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This example is a few decades older than most of the archival panorama photography It seemed like you were saying it was notable for being one of the first panorama photographs. Maybe I misunderstood you there. I think the other image differs in the level of detail. The ships are clearer, and the houses in the foreground have a lot more detail than the ones in the background in this picture (I assume the foreground elements in this nominee are roofs of something, although again, I don't know what of). Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 08:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point. Well I wouldn't quite call 1876 a historic first for panorama photography, but it's much less common than 1900-1920. I shared some of your concerns when I worked on this image, which is why I sent it through peer review. Thank you very much for the comments about the San Francisco harbor; that was one of the most heavily damaged images I ever restored. DurovaCharge!11:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The Montgolfier brothers' balloon, which was the first balloon to carry human passengers in 1783. Etching from 1786.
Reason
A 1786 etching that depicts the Montgolfier brothers' balloon with descriptive text and engineering data. Translation and conversion figures provided on image description page. A high quality archival image of a landmark event in aviation history. Restored version of Image:1783 balloon.jpg.
Original - Antelope-CanyonEdit 1 - Colors touched, noise reduced and sharpened. By Arad
Reason
It´s a great picture; technical not perfect, but even so really stunning in my opinion. It was the 7th place on Wikimedia-Commons "Picture of the year 2008" contest. I made it 2006 in the Antelope Canyon in the USA (Arizona).
Articles this image appears in
I belive, no article uses this picture, but it´s beyond question, that the picture is relevant for Wikipedia.--Mbz1 (talk) 22:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
-- and there were two before, one of upper Antelope, one of Lower. I just replaced a weak foto with a stronger one. Agree it would be nice to have more variety, but....
SupportWeak oppose Despite seeming a little soft, I prefer the composition of this image, and the way it conveys light and space certainly better than 2 of the other FPs. Mfield (talk) 04:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC) on further observation there's a dual edge to the rock as if the camera moved. Mfield (talk) 18:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support Both (Preference for Edit) - It has a better composition that the current FP. --18:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arad (talk • contribs)
Oppose Both Poor clarity/definition - artefacts going all over the place. The exisiting FP has far superior techinical qualities - and for such a well photographed subject P&S quality (as in this photo) just doesn't cut it for FP level IMO --Fir000212:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A sharp, 9000 pixel wide panorama showing off the downtown buildings, bridges and stadium of Vancouver, BC at dusk against the mountain setting of the city with illuminated ski runs
Support I would have liked this to be shot a little later for a brighter landscape. Very nicely done overall. victorrocha (talk) 1:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Support Excellent sharpness and detail - however whats with the banding in the sky on the LH corner of the image? --Fir000210:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not significant - in fact you only really notice it if you scroll through the pano (as I did) - you don't really see it if you just stare at it. The banding is a little more visible in this edit - as I say it's not significant but it's odd that only that section of the sky suffers from it and I was wondering if there was a particular reason. --Fir000200:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You know what - i think it's rain. About 10 mins after shooting this and packing up and walking back across the bridge to my hotel, it started pouring with rain. Maybe its a front of rain moving in from the west. It sure isn't any kind of banding from exposure or blending. Mfield (talk) 00:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC) oops, didn't look at your edit before typing that, it sure is odd, maybe it somehow got introduced during the downsize as its not there in the full size original. When I get a minute I'll fix it anyway. Mfield (talk) 01:18, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My guess is that its just the usual posterisation introduced by lifting extreme shadow detail slightly. It happens in horizontal/vertical bands because of the way the amplifier circuits work on the sensor, apparently. As Fir said, it isn't really visible unless you're scrolling (that said, how else do you view this image?), or looking for it specifically. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)23:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, but this image hasn't received anything approaching an 'extreme' shadow lift at all - (apart from Fir's edit to show it up of course) and ISO100 on a 5D is pretty much noise free as you know, unless there was something that affected this one RAW frame, but i need to dig out the RAW files to check that. I agree it does look like sensor noise banding in this version of the image yet it's not apparent in the 40000 wide original, I am looking into whether something in the downsize caused these artifacts to become more prominent. Mfield (talk) 23:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the subject of the 100ISO noise, it's worth noting that by the 20th 6s exposure in a row (this was shot from right to left) the CMOS had warmed a fair degree and consequently noise would have risen. Its amazing how apparent this effect is, especially on astro sequences. Mfield (talk) 23:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Would have liked to see a bit more of the sky though, both for compositional balance and a more pleasing aspect ratio, but it is very nice as-is. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)23:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Nice work. Aspect ratio is very large as pointed out above, but detail compensates despite being taken perhaps a tad late. That small bright patch of sky is a little off-putting as well and perhaps could be toned down a bit. --jjron (talk) 08:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC) Preference for Edit overall, even though it does make that bright patch of sky even worse (you can't selectively darken that a bit can you?). --jjron (talk) 09:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment So, have finally managed to free up enough swap file space and free enough RAM for my machine to enfuse two 40000 wide original versions to create a new edit sized as above that's superior to both versions voted upon already. Now I am torn as to whether to add it as a third version this late in the game or to withdraw this nom completely and start again with the new one to save confusion? Mfield (talk) 00:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be tempted to start again. You know its going to pass, the only question is which version, so I don't think all the support votes will be in vain, and from my experience, enfused images in scenes like this work very well (as long as you choose the exposures sensibly) - worth doing. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)08:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, close this as not promoted then close the new nomination most likely as promoted, versus close this as promoted then close the delist and replace - administratively it's basically six of one, half-dozen of the other. Anyway, it's withdrawn now. Personally I wouldn't withdraw my image if it was about to be promoted, but each to their own. --jjron (talk) 15:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Girl with a Pearl Earring by Johannes Vermeer, 1665.Alternate. This is the file I located the other day. Less yellow, slightly different aspect ratio. Previously this had appeared incorrectly due to an image title conflict between English Wikipedia and Commons.
Reason
Our featured pictures are short on paintings by the old masters, partly because many museums make it difficult to obtain high quality digital files and assert spurious copyright claims. After considerable research I located a cache at a Dutch website and chose one of the most famous images, then discovered that an even better quality version was already featured on the Spanish and Turkish Wikipedias.
Comment anyone know if the blue headscarf accurately reflects the painting's real color? Because in the other version it looks more turquoise. The painting itself looks to be in pretty bad shape, sad to say. Fletcher (talk) 15:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The two versions are very different. Obviously it has faded with age and its always good to have clarification on whether the digital copy is representing the painting as it is now or whether an attempt has been made to correct the colors or contrast towards what the image originally looked like. I think the nominated version is the correct one color wise, looking at other online resources like these [16][17] and that the yellower versions [18] have just been shot under tungsten light and not corrected. Mfield (talk) 17:14, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I saw this during the Vermeer exhibit at the Smithsonian about 15 years ago. Your linked version is _much_ yellower than the actual painting. deBivort17:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This version is very close to the balance of the version I have. The painting has been through restorations and "correct" versions probably have a different balance depending on when the photograph was taken. DurovaCharge!17:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The current version on the right is the accurate version concerning color (and everything else by the way). The painting you linked to us is to yellowish. Massimo Catarinella (talk)
Would you like me to upload the other version I've found for comparison? It's from a Dutch government archive and was provided by the museum itself. Slightly smaller, slightly different hues. DurovaCharge!18:41, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why it is important not to alter other editors' posts Papa Lima Whiskey struck through part of an image caption I had written.[19] Actually my comment about aspect ratios was correct and an image name conflict caused the confusion. Right now there are two different files by the same name hosted on Commons and Wikipedia. It wasn't apparent until I logged in from a different computer because my system wasn't flagging a notice when it displayed a different version from what the rest of you were seeing. When I log on from my main machine I'll fix it directly. Until then, please refer to Commons:Image:Girl with a Pearl Earring.jpg, and please leave me a comment in the future instead of altering my edits. DurovaCharge!00:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please sign your captions in future if you want this rule to apply. Thank you. And just as an aside, you didn't notify me about your comment, either. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 10:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Signing captions is unnecessary; you should simply exercise better judgment. Except in the most uncontroversial situations, don't hide other people's stuff, don't edit other people's stuff, or more succinctly.... Fletcher (talk) 13:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
LOL Fletcher, you were recently telling me about self-parody. You make a good candidate for a drink from the cool cucumber. :) Other than that, I can only point out that the essay you linked to is a corollary to WP:IAR, which lists as a "closely related guideline" WP:Be bold. I can hear windmills. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 15:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually my first thought was to contact PLW directly, then I decided it was better to post to the nomination discussion for three reasons: first, I happen to be at the wrong machine to correct the problem directly; second, people who had already based their decision upon the en:wiki file might want to re-review; third, this situation really could happen any nomination of a well-known historical image. Commons doesn't flag the uploader when a new filename conflicts with an existing filename on another project and my main system displays the unflagged Commons cache. I figured out the filename conflict because the strikethrough happened while I was online from an alternate computer, but I don't use this secondary system very often. The difference is significant--it changes the length of her face--and the version I uploaded originates from an official file at The Hague. The main goal is to present the intended alternate files for review, and it's more likely we'll catch the occasional developer-level issue by posting comments instead of by striking through existing captions. DurovaCharge!18:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Original per RJ1020's comment, the alternate does seem brighter, with harsher lighting on her forehead and right cheek.Fletcher (talk) 13:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support alternate. Much sharper, even shows every crack in the paint. Other version has interesting detail sink into shadow, loses detail in the girl's eyes. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 09:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The flowers of the plantain grow at the end of the shoot of the plant in a large bunch consisting of multiple hands with individual fingers. Only the first few hands will become fruits, with the rest falling down. The flowers are used as food by people of many cultures.Alternative
Reason
Good quality image with encyclopedic value. The image was reviewed at PPR with favourable reviews.
Oppose I used to have a large banana tree and I would see one of these pop up very very often. Personally, the flash ruined the picture. I would like a picture that's more evenly lit. I victorrocha(talk)01:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose Nice enough image but there is very high level of posterization/artefacts in the greens on the bottom of the image --Fir000212:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose It's nitpicky but I don't care for the fill flash that looks cooler than the background, it looks slightly superimposed on the background. Mfield (talk) 04:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I liked this at PPR as well; may have to look again at the issue Fir raises, but I don't think it's too serious. And personally I like the slight separation of the flower from the darker background that some others complain about. --jjron (talk) 08:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. I don't like the flash. I'd much rather have a discussion on whether the background is overexposed than whether the subject is overflashed. Another idea would have been to present two variants of this picture, one being without flash. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 15:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking time to review this image. I don't see how the background is overexposed. Versions of the image without flash looked boring, unappealing and did not have enough details, and the position of the plant was such that direct light never hit the small flowers. Muhammad(talk)18:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm saying I'd rather have a flaw in the background than on the main subject. If you hadn't used flash and exposed the main subject correctly, you presumably would have had to overexpose the background. I'm saying that overexposing the background might have been the better option given the circumstances. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 18:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The hotel on a hill part is beautiful, but it's smudgy on the edges (due to fog from the sea?) and not very interesting, especially compared to some of the panoramas on this page. The smokestack, the railcars, and the tracks in the mud/sand in the bottom left hand corner detract from the picture too. It also doesn't bring much encyclopedic value to the seaside resort page. sorry Intothewoods29 (talk) 22:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Grumman F8F-2P Bearcat G-RUMM N700HL of the Fighter Collection, based at Duxford, Cambridgeshire, UK, flying at Flying Legends, 13th July 2008Edit 1 - Convert to sRGB, Adjust levels, local contrast enhancement, noise reduction by Mfield
Reason
Clear high quality image, sharp focus,
For clarity, original uploaded version discussed at start is here
Oooh, that's an excellent edit. Thanks. I clearly overcooked my postprocessing in Lightroom. Agree re the clouds - the weather has been awful this summer for airshows. I was interested about the conversion to sRGB - it looks like Lightroom exports AdobeRGB by default. Does this change have much practical benefit, or why did you do it? Thanks :) chowells (talk) 22:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well the web is pretty much universally sRGB as only Safari and Firefox 3 support color profiling. Leaving it in AdobeRGB will therefore result in the majority of viewers seeing a washed out, color shifted version in their (probably IE) browser. The degree it gets affected depends on the specific image and the colors used in it. This image really wouldn't benefit from the extended gamut of AdobeRGB anyway. It's best to convert to sRGB before uploading for a majority web based project like Commons. I actually rarely use AdobeRGB unless I have a very specific output and color range in mind, like printing large landscapes with more greens and cyans. Here's a handy link detailing the differences in gamut [20]Mfield (talk) 22:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot for the explanation. As I can see that the original was so poor, I've overwritten it with something more like yours created directly from the RAW in lightroom. Hope that's ok, cheers. chowells (talk) 23:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Not that great, lighting could be better. It's not a very interesting photo, certainly not one of wikipedia's best. Looks okay for the article, but doesn't add much to the encyclopedic value. Greener Cactus (talk) 20:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not very interesting. Maybe to someone who doesn't know anything about planes. As a WW2 fighter plane buff, this is one of the most intersting FPs to come through in a long time. As to not being encyclopedic, what would make it encyclopedic? It doesn't get much better than this: a modern, perfect quality photo of a 65 year old plane restored to look like it's just rolled off the assembly line, and in addition to the beautiful aesthetics, still flying. Clegs (talk) 00:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Shadows? Are we looking at the same plane? All I see are cloud reflections. Those are normal when a plane is flying. As far as looking like a toy plane, I don't see where you pull that from. What do you want? A label saying THIS IS A REAL PLANE? It's perfectly sharp, crystal clear, and the plane is perfectly restored, right down to the mirror finish on the blue paint. Clegs (talk) 00:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
haha okay fine I guess I shoulda figured that out about the shadows... LOL. I personally don't think it's one of WP's finest, but that's just me.
Weak Support of Edit 1 Was really on the fence with this one. I'm artistically kind of opposed to the plain background and lighting (compared to this pic of a P-38, whose cirrus clouds really add to the image, IMO, or to the Spitfire also by Chowells, which is nicely lit and has a better angle of the pilot). But this is for the encyclopedia, and it shows great detail of a rare bird in its natural habitat (the sky). That leads me to support. BTW, I'm still preferring Mfield's edit which to me has nicer contrast. Fletcher (talk) 14:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It's a very nice image, aesthetically speaking. However, the quality in the dark underside of the plane is very poor, so much so that barely any detail is visible. Considering the amount of high quality airplane FPs we have, this one just doesn't deserve it. It has thumbnail appeal, but not much past that. NauticaShades02:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Diliff, it may be the best photo of Pula we have, but its not the best aerial photo of a city, and that's the benchmark. Mfield (talk) 04:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To be pedantic, TFG is completely incorrect, since he was under the impression that we were just looking for encyclopaedic value. Just because we have lower res requirements, it doesn't mean we don't have res requirements at all. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)12:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then you're not being pedantic, you've delibrately glossed over the original point, which was that he misunderstood our FPC requirements, in order to be courteous. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs)13:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, my logic is just different from yours. There are several ways to decompose his statement, and yours is just one of them. But that plurality would have been intolerable to you, I really should have known, having interacted with you in this same style on several occasions. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 15:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - A copy from 1871 of the original proposal to Gothenburg's expansion from 1864, with avenues, boulevards, parks, and monumental architecture.
Reason
High resolution map of the expansion plan of Gothenburg, very high encyclopedic value despite the fact that all text is in Swedish. Many, if not all of, the buildings and areas in this map which are written out have articles in the english wikipedia.
Oppose because it's really just a decent scan of an old map. It isn't really that exciting in itself just for being old , else we'd be having every scanned in old document featured. Mfield (talk) 04:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's just not an old map, it's a quite unique expansion plan. It is the best preserved unvarying area of 1870–1920 urban planning ideals and architecture in Sweden, maybe even in Europe. --Krm500 (talk) 11:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I can see its high encyclopedic value, but it's torn in some places (I think), and it looks like someone spilled an entire coffeepot on it, especially in the upper right hand corner. the faded text also detracts from the value. Intothewoods29 (talk) 17:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Faded text? If it help I have it in higher resolution, but the original file is too large for browsers to open I think, and users with low bandwith would have huge troubles viewing it. --Krm500 (talk) 18:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Definite encyclopedic value. Unfortunately time has not been kind to this map. The decomposition has not been too extensive in the essential locations, so a restoration would be possible (although it would be laborious) but this particular scan is not high enough resolution. The inscription below and to the right of the title is too pixelated to be very legible and the lines outlining the city blocks are incomplete. This is probably a shortcoming of the scanner settings, not of the map itself. So if a better scan is available I would gladly share restoration tips with the nominator and possibly assist with the work. DurovaCharge!04:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think I have to recant this nomination, when I was about to upload the original resolution of the map I found a copyright claim on the source page. If someone is good at copyright law please contact me at my talk page. --Krm500 (talk) 21:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - Meadow Pipit photographed in Northumberland in April 2008Edited version:Scaled, noise reduced, sharpened versionEdit 2 NR on full size by Papa Lima Whiskey (talk)
Reason
Quite a nice shot of a sometimes elusive bird. At Peer Review, Noodle snacks created a much better (I think) edited version of this photo, which is also shown here. The original was taken on a very, very dull day (the English summer has been awful) against a background of limestone quarry cliffs - hence the high ISO, as otherwise would have been too dark/blurry).
Oppose. Not a bad shot, but it's quite noisy even in the edited version and doesn't have the level of detail of most FP bird shots.--ragesoss (talk) 06:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such thing as lossless noise removal. If you invent it, you can be a rich man. If you tell me what exactly to you is an artefact in the image, maybe I can help you. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 21:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The entire edit 2 image looks posterized in little blotches; look at the bird's foot on the branch at full resolution, for example. I simply don't think any amount of editing is going to make this one FP material.--ragesoss (talk) 19:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, let me know what you think of the previous version [21] - better or worse? The fact remains that if this image is scaled down to the minimum required, it's becomes perfectly acceptable in terms of noise. I can't help feeling that you're punishing Seahamlass for uploading an image of high resolution, something that we usually encourage. (Not just you, other people also don't seem to take size into account in what I perceive to be the right way...) Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 20:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's about the same. I disagree that the scaled-down version is FP quality (and I agree with the principle that we shouldn't punish images for being uploaded in large sizes that reveal flaws, if they have the detail and quality at appropriate sizes). Compare the level of detail in the feathers and claws in this FP candidate, which has strong support and rightly so. It's only 1024 pixels, but those pixels show way more detail than even the full-size version of this. For this image, even the 1024 thumbnail is really noisy to the point of lost detail, and as you point out, any attempt to smooth out the noise means even more lost detail. It was taken on a Canon 40D at 800 ISO and the background is brighter than the subject, with auto exposure and no exposure bias (which probably means the subject was underexposed and brightened afterwards); considering all that, the shot came out great. --ragesoss (talk) 02:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Çomment- I'm worried about the very yellow cast the plumage has. Other pictures of this bird show much lighter undersides. pschemp | talk13:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Papa Lima Whiskey for the updated version. I like it! The colour hasn't been altered on the bird, despite the above concerns, some birds are just naturally more yellowish than others. (See the pipit pic at birdwatching.co.uk for another yellowish example.) -- Seahamlass15:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Edit 2 - My concerns have been allayed. Composition is nice and you can see individual feathers. Couldn't ask for more details. pschemp | talk16:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose. As mentioned above, it's a nice shot, but the noise is just too bad in the original and edits 1 and 2 lose a lot of detail. NauticaShades01:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the image's defense, it is almost 2k pixels high, which is twice the minimum required by the criteria. (It's 2.4k wide, but I'll go with height because that seems to be the encyclopaedically relevant dimension in this image). Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 07:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I examined this image with the width being 1000px (the minimum to pass the requirements), and I found that the noise is still quite visible. NauticaShades01:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I think enough effort has been poured into that. If you can't, among the proposed versions, find one that you like, then I doubt there'll ever be a version of this exact photo (as opposed to a lucky-as-hell retake in better light) to please you. With that, I'll carefully place the grail on the floor here, and wait for someone with access to more sophisticated noise removal software than myself to prove me wrong. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk; todo) 22:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A period cultural document of some artistic merit in a high resolution file. Contains the signature of symphonyconductorWalter Johannes Damrosch. Shows the basic elements of a table d'hôte menu and demonstrates the opulent philanthropy of the Gilded Age.
Original - "Now then, Mossoo, your Form is of the Manliest Beauty, and you are altogether a most attractive Object; but you've stood there long enough. So jump in and have done with it!" - Cartoon by noted comic artist George du Maurier for the illustrated weekly, Punch.
Reason
I believe this is the only good-quality scan of a cartoon from this notable British artist that we have.
Original - The long white beak of a Long-billed Corella (Cacatua (Licmetis) tenuirostris) is used to dig for roots and seeds.
Reason
Great quality. Already successfully nominated a picture of the whole bird, however this one serves a different purpose, demonstrating beak structure. This image also provides greater detail for the most important part of the bird for identification purposes.
Weak Support It's a great pic, but is it my eyes (from the white), or are the feathers south-west of his eye VERY blurry? Dengero (talk) 11:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. FWIW and in the interests of fairness, this is neither an existing FP nor a crop of the existing FP, even if it is clearly taken at the same time and is almost certainly the same bird. --jjron (talk) 09:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original - The Seine as seen from the Pont Royal. The Musée d'Orsay is visible in the left foreground and the Grand Palais is in the right background.
Reason
This is an HDR photo I took of the Seine, whilst trying out the new technique. I like this image for the encyclopedia because it shows the Seine's prominence in Paris, the Musée d'Orsay on the left, the Grand Palais to the right, and in the far background, the Pont Alexandre III, it also shows one of the tourboats moving down the river--a common view for city visitors. The image is of sufficient resolution (1000px width), was given to the public domain, and is applicable to the Seine article.
Weak oppose because it's just too dark for my tastes, but that's just me. it'd be nice if the sky was a bit lighter, less dark purple. But again, that's just me. Intothewoods29 (talk) 16:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - barely hits resolution requirements (which are minimum reasonable) and the HDR is overdone. Too in-your-face and showing off, more of an artistic technique than getting more information in the image. Too arty, less encyclopaedic. —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ19:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
successfully passed as an FP without any model permission. Muhammad(talk) 18:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
. --jjron (talk) 15:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Support Why would this need a larger version? Some Wikipedians are way too obsessed with the rules. To the point that they blindly follow them forgetting their original intent. --Calibas (talk) 02:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
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